KIPS Questions

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KIPS Questions

Postby BamBam » 01:48 pm Feb 20 2017

A question about this KIPS thing... is the entire KIPS system located in the top end, or is there some component in the crankcase area? A buddy told me that there is some centrifugal device in the crank area that drives the gear to operate at around 6000rpm. So with my KDX220 currently having a KIPS problem, is there a way to diagnose if the problem comes from the top end vs bottom end?
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby Jason » 02:01 pm Feb 20 2017

It is down under the actuator arm. Look on the parts diagrams online, and it will make more sense
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby BamBam » 04:39 pm Feb 20 2017

Jason - I still don't quite understand the root part driving this thing. The "top end" parts diagram has a bunch of KIPS valves, gears and actuators. And the other diagram for "engine cover" shows the governor shaft that looks like it drives the KIPS parts in the top end.

What makes the governor shaft spin? Is there a chance a broken KIPS leads into splitting cases? Or can a KIPS issue be fixed by taking apart to clean/inspect/fix/timing all the parts from the governor shaft and up? I am just worried about doing all that and finding out some core part driving the governor shaft is broken and wasting all that time working above.

Does that makes any sense? Because I really am flying blind here and trying to learn as I go. I watch the video showing a proper KIPS function (the gear rotating behind the cover here) https://www.youtube.com/v/27quf8V-u_o and mine doesn't rotate like this hardly at all.

Just a little confused on how bad this could be and if there is any other test I should do to further diagnose before I start taking stuff apart.
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KIPS Questions

Postby Willbilly » 05:09 pm Feb 20 2017

Its all in the top end
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby John_S » 08:55 am Feb 21 2017

Before you start taking it all apart (top end and right engine cover) you can test to see whether the problem is in the lower part of the actuator arm (under the right engine cover) or the valves (inside the cylinder). Take off the pipe and the right side kips cover near the top of the cylinder. Support the actuator shaft with pliers and unscrew the nut at the top (left hand threads) and remove the lever that has the teeth, sorry for my "technical description" there. You could then manually actuate the kips valves in the cylinder by hand to see if there's anything hanging up. You could also reinstall the pipe and start it to see if the actuator arm turns at the time the kips should be opening at around 6k rpm's, lever with teeth still off. It might be tough to see the shaft turning with the pipe back on. It would be nice to know if you need to take the right side engine cover off, or just the top end. Either way you're in for some work, but don't need to split the case halves. Google "kdx top end" and look for the name Bryan Kimsey. I liked his description of the installation of all the kips parts with checking function along the way. He took a lot of time to document it and take pictures.
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby Jason » 04:57 pm Feb 21 2017

Excellent ideas here.

The KIPS is outside the parts inside the case halves.
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby BamBam » 09:31 pm Feb 25 2017

John_S - what brilliance you shared !!! Working on it, I made some progress that might be useful to others, following your advice. First - I took the pipe off and opened up the right side KIPS cover. Removed the claw (lever with teeth) from the gear, Looked inside the exhaust hole and could see kips valve things. Hand turned the gear and could see the kips valve things rotate on the sides of exhaust hole, and the flapper thing move above. Cool !!

Then reinstalled the pipe leaving the KIPS cover off. Put white tape around the arm coming up from lower engine, and with markings so I could see that lower arm does in fact rotate at high RPM's. So that is also good ! https://youtu.be/XSs5JZEGSFI
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby BamBam » 10:13 pm Feb 25 2017

Next step was to put the claw lever thing back on the gear. And strangely enough, I now saw the white paint on that gear tooth that I had not seen before. Did I miss it? Maybe the gear was in the wrong position and that is why the KIPS wasn't working? Hmmmm.

So now I was putting the claw lever thing back on with its dot aligned to the white gear. Started the bike and checked the left side KIPS view port.
And sure enough NOW it was working... https://www.youtube.com/v/_zRvEc-bnNk
But do you think it looks kind of sploogy and slow?

Could not resist. Took the bike for a quick rip through the neighborhood. Gotta say, at least once I felt an extra surge up top, but not consistently. Could it be that if the KIPS was set wrong by previous owner, that it might be carbon and gunked up and not working too well?

Next step is the top end removal to clean up and investigate condition of this thing.
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby bufftester » 10:30 pm Feb 25 2017

The KIPS valve ALWAYS gets gunked up by the very nature of what it is doing. A good cleaning will have it working in no time. It is very common for people to misalign the teeth (and in fact the early versions of the factory service manual had the subvalve installation reversed). You could have saved a bit of work when you had the claw off the top of the shaft by trying to then rotate the shaft by hand, it should not rotate. If the pin at the bottom of the shaft is sheared (very common issue) then the shaft would have rotated freely. Glad to hear you're getting it sorted out
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby deepwoods » 02:24 pm Mar 05 2017

is it a common thing among those that know the kdx 200 h very well to change the whole kips arm going down to the cases, since somebody might have changed a piston or 2 in the bike before you were the owner, and did not support the shaft while taking off the reverse tread nut??if you seasoned kdx guys could talk a bit bout this it would be off great help. thanks
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby Jason » 03:55 pm Mar 05 2017

Just when someone broke it
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby bufftester » 04:11 pm Mar 05 2017

Yep, and they usually break it because it is a left hand thread fastener and they aren't using a manual. More often they end up breaking the pin at the bottom of the shaft, but I have heard of broken arms at the nut , and even one guy that somehow managed to bend the entire shaft.
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby BamBam » 10:32 pm Mar 10 2017

Have the cylinder on my bench now, and taking the KIPS components out to clean them.
Having trouble getting this 10mm bolt loose. Is there a trick? Is it something with crazy strong locktite?
Doesn't seem like a good idea to use a torch to loosen it up with all that oil.

Suggestions please???

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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby Jason » 10:41 pm Mar 10 2017

Picture is not showing up.

Have You tried penetrating oil?
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby BamBam » 10:49 pm Mar 10 2017

Having a tough time getting this pic to upload. Photobucket is a pile of crap. Any other good site to use for IMG posting?

Image

*If this works, it was 45 minutes of effort fighting photobucket, Imgur, and Flickr. Grrrrrr
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby Jason » 11:13 pm Mar 10 2017

I can see the picture now. Have you tried the Gallery here?

I don't see how you would heat up JUST the nut and not the shaft too.

I am looking at the last version of the manual. 78 inch-pounds on that nut, no mention of left hand threads.
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby BamBam » 03:04 pm Mar 11 2017

I let some liquid wrench soak, and changed to a 6pt socket with long arm 3/8" drive ratchet to finally break it loose. WOW, it was holding on with way more than 78 inch-pounds. Maybe previous owner made that same inch vs foot-lbs mistake as me. Ha! But got it off. Thanks.

Going to start cleaning out the grimey oil and carbon tonight. I have standard engine degreaser and oven cleaner as chemical help. Is one better than the other, and do I need to worry about protecting any surfaces from these chemicals? Is the bore plating vulnerable?
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby bufftester » 03:41 pm Mar 11 2017

Engine degreaser yes, oven cleaner NO. Never use oven cleaner on aluminum as it's caustic and will etch the aluminum.
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby Jason » 08:29 pm Mar 11 2017

Yeah, be careful with the over cleaner. Brass wire brush can be helpful.
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Re: KIPS Questions

Postby BamBam » 09:04 pm Mar 11 2017

New Problem. I am either taking the most painful journey in existence, or a valuable learning experience (likely both).

Remember the force needed to get that 10mm nut off the main KIPS shaft? For the next step in manual the little gear underneath was supposed to easily come out. It did not. Not at all. Took a long time of poking and prodding to see that it had become damaged. A tooth broke off, and the gear was now wedged tight against that ball bearing. Finally able to tap the ball bearing down and out with a small punch. And then gear came out easily. Rest of the KIPS parts came out without further problems and cleaning will start. But I need a new end gear that sits under the nut.

Image

Sheeesh.
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