E-Series KIPS, Food for thought, Calling Ron Black, Calling.

Post by **Julien D** » 06:14 am Aug 17 2011

That's cool. You can respectfully disagree all you want. I have no problem with that.

The issue with my valves is binding and snapping in two or three pices at the thin part or (shaft) between the barrel and the gear, not wear on the surface. Just because I can't scratch the very outer surface of it with a key doesn't mean I can't snap it in half. Just IMO and all that. If your bike is having an issue with actual wearing out of the gear teeth, maybe anodizing will help with that aspect, at least for some period of time? IDK. Might be worth it, might not be.

Post by **dfeckel** » 06:38 am Aug 17 2011

I just sent an e-mail to Carvalho Racing to inquire about their gold valves. Hopefully they have an English-speaker on their staff.

I asked what they are made of, how strong are they compared to the OEM valves, and details on price, payment, and shipping.

I'll let everyone know the details as soon as I hear back.

Post by **dfeckel** » 06:45 am Aug 17 2011

Juliend,

I'm a little skeptical on snapping resistance of these valves as well. My problem is also snapping at the narrow parts of the shaft. If they are just coated, then I'm not sure how much longer they will last in my motor. But if the cost for six or ten sets is as low as it appears on their website, it's worth a try.

Fletch · Post by **Fletch** » 07:12 am Aug 17 2011

That's interesting Juliend, I didn't realize that was a problem. My 89 had worn the teeth off the LH subvalve when it got jammed with carbon. Has your plate on the cover helped to fix that problem or are you still worried about it?
How long since the last problem?

BBR · Post by **BBR** » 08:04 am Aug 17 2011

The snapping was the reason I was thinking billet valves vs. cast would be the way to go. Either that or steel.

I am probably going to make a plate to help stabilize mine. Looks like you could probably use a washer with a hole drilled in it for the set screw.

Post by **Julien D** » 08:58 am Aug 17 2011

Honestly, have not had a problem since I put that plate on. I guess that was nearly a year ago? Before that i blew through 3 sets of subvalves in 2 years. At least, I don't think I have. I need to pull the pipe off and verify that all 3 valves are still in working order. Seems that they are from riding it, but one could still be broken.

BBR · Post by **BBR** » 09:16 am Aug 17 2011

Next time you have it open, take a pic of your plate. I'm 99% sure I know what you did but like they say, a pic is worth a thousand words.

Post by **SS109** » 11:56 am Aug 17 2011

BBR wrote:Next time you have it open, take a pic of your plate. I'm 99% sure I know what you did but like they say, a pic is worth a thousand words.

Follow this link for more info on the plate idea. http://kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10847

BTW, juliend, fuzzy, whoever, this linked thread is another one that should be added to the best mods sticky.

chkdx · Post by **chkdx** » 12:33 pm Aug 17 2011

The issue with my valves is binding and snapping in two or three pices at the thin part or (shaft) between the barrel and the gear, not wear on the surface. Just because I can't scratch the very outer surface of it with a key doesn't mean I can't snap it in half. Just IMO and all that. If your bike is having an issue with actual wearing out of the gear teeth, maybe anodizing will help with that aspect, at least for some period of time? IDK. Might be worth it, might not be.

I think the "hard anodized with teflon" surface would help reduce the binding. It's not only much harder than bare aluminum, but also much slicker; it has a lot more inherent lubricity than bare aluminum. Again, I can't say for certain that it would cure the problem, but this is the exact sort of problem that coating was developed for.

Fletch · Post by **Fletch** » 07:44 pm Aug 17 2011

I'm interested to see if Juliend has solved the problem for good. If the plate and good oil and regular cleanings do the trick I see no point in getting these valves.
J when you pull the exhaust let us know what you find...

BBR · Post by **BBR** » 10:00 am Sep 27 2011

Any updates?

Post by **dfeckel** » 06:50 am Sep 28 2011

No updates. Sorry. I haven't received any response from Carvalho Racing. I guess their English is as good as my Portugese.

But rest assured that every time I meet someone new, I'll ask them if they speak Portugese!

Post by **Keystone** » 11:35 am Feb 01 2015

Julien D wrote: The issue with my valves is binding and snapping in two or three pices at the thin part or (shaft) between the barrel and the gear, not wear on the surface. Just because I can't scratch the very outer surface of it with a key doesn't mean I can't snap it in half. Just IMO and all that. If your bike is having an issue with actual wearing out of the gear teeth, maybe anodizing will help with that aspect, at least for some period of time? IDK. Might be worth it, might not be.

Possible explanation?

I read a forum post, think it was Thumpertalk or something. A guy noticed during re-assembly his KIPS valves binding when he torqued the head bolts down too tight. When he loosened the bolts up, KIPS moved freely again. Valves snapping in 3 different places isn't normal, like a valve that has been locked in place.

Exact torque (pg.4-2 '89 service manual) is 25 N-m (18.0 ft-lb). Somewhat tricky because, at times, you may use an extension on certain bolts which means a formula must be used to adjust these torque settings.

Is it possible the valves could be locking up due to over torqued or improperly torqued head bolts? Maybe after the engine gets hot, then shredding and snapping? If this is the case, no metal will be strong enough to prevent the shredding. KIPS teeth do normally show wear over time, and harder metal would seem to help with normal KIPS teeth wear.

Post by **Julien D** » 12:16 pm Feb 01 2015

If the head bolt torque is binding up kips movement something is warped or damaged. There should be no part of the head that has any opportunity to come into contact with the kips components. Maybe he had a collar that would not seat down flush, or a damaged or improperly installed gasket. Who knows? In any case, I have never had any case of binding after reassembling with newly installed valves. Obviously it does bind at some point, but that is really unavoidable when you look at the way the system is designed. There is no proper support for the numerous gear meshes in there. I do know from years of dealing with and reading about the issue that snapped stems are every bit as common as stripped teeth, if not more.

Gotanubike · Post by **Gotanubike** » 02:36 pm Feb 01 2015

KDXsg wrote:Hi, i agreed that the left hand valve is seems always breaking. i have tried customizing the vlaves using steel but what happens was that it wear out the cylinder block kips valves holes faster. hence there is a reason why some parts are made of aluminium and some steel. to reduce wear and tear on the more expensive parts like the cylinder but just have to change the least expensive parts like the left hand vlave.

I had change a new cylinder and all the parts and vlaves on the kips system and it lasted me 5 long years and i ride really hard on my e series.
i have come to a conclusion myself is that when new valves is install to an really old cylinder the tolerances is much greater hence they break faster.
like the chain and sprockets theory. just my thought.

That's a bit concerning, if Brock were to roll out a set of steel valves and they could possibly cause harm to the holes in the jug without the appropriate inserts. Steel/brass(brass has a high thermal expansion) inserts would be difficult I would think, unless someone were able to create them to match the porting in the cylinder..Then have them installed locally, would be the most logical

Post by **Keystone** » 03:44 pm Feb 01 2015

If there is no proper support for the numerous gear meshes in there, would steel valves help much anyways? Steel valves do seem to work in the older KDX (1986) series. Any real problems with those binding? What would be the difference?

Post by **Julien D** » 09:58 am Feb 02 2015

The only place you would have to worry about inserts would be in the lower journals of the cylinder where the "pin" on the bottom of the sub valves and idler gear sit. I think for long term, that would be ideal.

80elkster · Post by **80elkster** » 12:38 pm Feb 02 2015

Questions and points of interest:
1) Has Kawasaki officially stopped production of the KIPS valve parts for E-Series? Can someone confirm?

2) BDK Race Engineering may soon be offering Steel replacement valves.
http://bdkraceeng.co.uk/tc/products.php?new

3) The alignment plate that is mentioned during this thread, are pictures available?

4) And finally bushings, if the expansion rate of brass is too different than aluminum then what about a high temp lubricated plastic?

It sounds like if all these solutions could be pulled together into a kit that included drills, reamers, bushings, plate, stronger KIPS valves and gears then do we believe there would be a demand for it?

Gotanubike · Post by **Gotanubike** » 03:07 pm Feb 02 2015

1) Disco'd. Picture below from electronic parts catalog from kawasaki.com before they changed it their website

2) Already ordered!

3) Plate idea of JulienD's http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... 15&t=17339

4) Haven't had broken valves so far so the collars weren't an issue but plastic to me sounds like not such a good idea, if not from heat then due to friction

chkdx · Post by **chkdx** » 04:55 pm Feb 02 2015

Regarding (4): This glass-filled teflon might work very well: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-plastic-rods/=vqls85

Very slippery, and good to 500 degrees. FWIW, brass bushings, although common, are not very good. Brass typically has poor lubricity and high wear in such an application. Bronze would be better, Oilite better yet, but I think the glass-filled teflon might very well be best of all.

KDXRIDER.NET

KDXRIDER.NET