E-Series KIPS, Food for thought, Calling Ron Black, Calling.

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80elkster
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E-Series KIPS, Food for thought, Calling Ron Black, Calling.

Post by 80elkster »

I have a 93 E-Series and have heard of many KIPS issues/failures and was tossing around ideas to strengthen the KIPS. I'm getting ready to pull the head and send it down to RB and figured that would be a good time to go thru the KIPS and that is what got me thinking could WE come up with some ways to strengthen the KIPS.
So here are some Ideas to kick around:
1) Teflon coating on the valves similar to the coating on high performance pistons ;
2) Small bronze(?) bushings in the head and Cylinder for the valves to pivot in.
3) Make the collars (bushings) out of a different material (plastic, bronze, brass???);
4) Make the valves out of a different material or combination of materials;

Any other brainstorming ideas out there E-Series guys????

Ron surely you have some ideas???
This may end up being a service you could offer??

Also for those of you that had to replace the valves, what/where was worn or broken??

Where are the specific weak areas?

How can we reinforce the weak areas to keep these engines running strong?
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Post by Mr. Wibbens »

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Post by Budget_89KDX »

I'm in no way an expert and this 89 is the first kips I've serviced but what I wondered when I just did mine was why make half the setup out of aluminum and the other steel?seems like they had a specific reason why I'm just not sure of it.maybe the steel is too heavy and would be more mass to rotate in turn causing extra strees on the drive in the crank case?


Another thought though to possibly strengthen the valves themselves would be cryogenic freezing?makes a difference in the auto world.
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Post by SS109 »

Julien made a plate that strengthens the setup but I can't remember exactly what he did. Hopefully he can chime in on that and add some more input as well.

I have thought about anti-friction coatings. I was thinking about sending mine out to http://www.microblueracing.com to have their coating done to the KIPS moving pieces. Not cheap but maybe worth it?

Material wise I bet they made them out of aluminum in case the part were to seize. The aluminum could then fail by shearing like in Wibby's pic so that it doesn't hurt the engine. However, I can't see how it couldn't be made with a mild tool steel. As long as you kept up on your maintenance, and maybe add an anti-friction coating, it wouldn't be a problem.
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Post by Budget_89KDX »

Ss109 what does that coating cost?I can't see these little kips peices could cost that much to do.


Juliend got a pic of the peice you made?I'm interested in what you did there.
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Post by SS109 »

Sorry, no clue about what it would cost to do our power valve parts. I would need to send them some pics of all the pieces we would want done and probably the rough dimensions of the larger parts.

Hmm, another thought. I wonder if we could have the gear part of the valves machined off and have a steel gear pinned on in place like a distributor drive gear in old V8 engines?

Also, in the pic above of the shredded PV, would the "shaft" that the valve pivots on, if it was completely round all the way through, would it protrude in to the slot? Even if it does, possibly we could machine the "shaft part out and insert a steel shaft with gear and pin in place. If it does protrude we could get it machined to match the slot, just leave it be, or get crazy with a Dremel!

Eh, just thoughts anyways... :razz:
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Post by Budget_89KDX »

I like the idea of the gears like an old V8.easy enough to replace just tap out the roll pin and slide it off.I think by the time the oem peices were milled down they wouldn't be any stronger if anything probably weaker.but I like the ideas come on guys this thread may be on to something here.


I'm not sure like I said of its effects on aluminum but maybe the cryo stuff would add some strength.the coating definately sounds like a very pheasible idea provided it didn't cost a fortune.



Isn't there a link I think I've seen on here of some aftermarket kips valves floating around?are those made of a stronger or different material?
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Post by SS109 »

I think pinning a gear on would work just fine. After all, there is a thinner section of the shaft at the end and it does OK. I would machine it down to the inner (between gear and valve) diameter and have a bronze gear made up for it.

If anyone has there old power valves that look like Wibby's pics (just stripped teath), and would care to donate them to me, I will try a few things. Hell, I wouldn't have anything to lose with the old valves other than some time and a little cash for machining on my end.
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Post by Budget_89KDX »

I have a broken one I'd donate to the cause.
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Post by KDXsg »

Hi, i agreed that the left hand valve is seems always breaking. i have tried customizing the vlaves using steel but what happens was that it wear out the cylinder block kips valves holes faster. hence there is a reason why some parts are made of aluminium and some steel. to reduce wear and tear on the more expensive parts like the cylinder but just have to change the least expensive parts like the left hand vlave.

I had change a new cylinder and all the parts and vlaves on the kips system and it lasted me 5 long years and i ride really hard on my e series.
i have come to a conclusion myself is that when new valves is install to an really old cylinder the tolerances is much greater hence they break faster.
like the chain and sprockets theory. just my thought.
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Post by Julien D »

I have several sets of broken valves.

The plate I made is just a piece of aluminum that fits between the RH plastic kips cover and the jug. Rather than that one crappy set screw holding the RH bushing in, the plate holds it all the way around, and prevents it from being able to cock sideways. Even when in good condition, you'll notice you can pull the edge of that bushing out from the side that doesn't have the screw. If you hold it that way and try to pull the rod, the whole thing gets bound up.

I haven't had a breakage since I made that plate, however, it's still a temporary solution. It's not going to change that the subvalves are made from weak aluminum and will wear faster than the steel rod and main gear.

Some foreign company had a set of brass valves for the E series KDX, damned if I can find the link anymore though.....

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Post by Indawoods »

Any holes in the cylinder could be sleeved preventing wear.
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Post by Julien D »

I'd had an idea from my 1/8 rc days to use a hardened steel motor shaft from an rc, most are very close in diameter to the top and bottom portion of the subvalve. Cut a valve off clean above and below the barrel. Drill it for the new shaft, epoxy or set screw in place. Locate a hardened steel pinion of the correct gear mesh and install on top of the shaft. Install new and improved subvavles! Probably would be a good idea to put a brass bushing down in the lower journal to slow the wear down there.

I just need to figure out the gear pitch on the sub valve so I know if I can find a pinion gear that would match.
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Post by dfeckel »

A possible problem with sending a steel shaft down the barrel of the valves is that the cut away in the valves goes past halfway through, I.e., the shaft would be exposed to the exhaust stream and would likely reduce flow. It might not make an appreciable difference to the power.

I do like the idea of fitting a brass gear on the valves. I took mine out to clean them this winter, and there is significant wear on the teeth of the left valve gear teeth after less than 20 hours. They were brand new.

I also like the idea of putting a sleeve to receive the valve shaft into the cylinder.

Here's an off the wall idea. For those in search of reliability rather than power, make a new valve with NO shafts or gears, just the middle section cut down on a lathe ALL THE WAY AROUND to give you maybe half the flow of an open intact valve. It would be free to spin around in the cylinder just like a broken valve, but it would provide the same amount of flow no matter what position it is in. Granted, it will reduce low end somewhat, and top end as well, but it can't break! You could do it for only the left valve, leaving the right valve stock and functional, accepting a slightly diminished low and top for utter reliability and ease of implementation.
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Post by fuzzy »

I swear I saw someone post a link to these being made in Japan out of all brass/etc.
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Post by Julien D »

>|<>QBB<
fuzzy wrote:I swear I saw someone post a link to these being made in Japan out of all brass/etc.
Yeah, that's what I was looking for. Thought it was german? IDK, but it's out there somewhere. I'll see if I can find it again....

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Post by kdxquebec »

I came across that too a few years ago but can not find them anymore. They was advertised as '' Gold Power Valves'' or someting similar. I don't remeber from what metal they was made of.
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Post by 80elkster »

Thanks everone for your replies. I will be compiling a list of all the failure points and all of the ideas you have thrown out there I'll post the list then maybe we can brainstorm how and where we may be able to get the improvements done and try it out.
In the mean time I would really like to get Ron Black's input on this, afterall he has the background and capabilities.
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Post by chadr »

>|<>QBB<
dfeckel wrote:I took mine out to clean them this winter, and there is significant wear on the teeth of the left valve gear teeth after less than 20 hours. They were brand new.
i picked up an 89 kdx 200 this weekend and will check out the kips stuff soon, but 20 hours of use on your new kips parts and there is already a good amount of wear? This has me discouraged a bit. Hopefully the kips is functioning or can be restored on my bike, but it is doubtful since I don't believe it was maintained all that well. It does run and cost me $280 so I don't feel too bad if the kips pieces need to be replaced (used or new, not sure what is still avail).

So how long can I expect the kips to work if new pieces are used? If used components are used then I expect that answer varies a good amount depending on condition....
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Post by Budget_89KDX »

I had a buddy hot tank my jug and used a soft wire wheel to clean the kips parts I didn't replace.when I got the jug home used brake cleaner and some brushes to clean any leftover carbon.mine looks brand new and from the way I read on here if jetted and maintained properly they'll last years.I can't say I just got mine together.kips isn't too bad to set up and time I was dreading it and it turned out to be cake work.


Btw mines an 89 as well.
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