Need jetting help

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wanaride
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Need jetting help

Post by wanaride »

I still can't do the "slow crawl in 2nd and wick it for a wheelie" test. I also still have tons of spooge, so my jetting must be off. (40:1 Maxima K2, 93 octane pump gas, snorkel removed, stock reeds, stock carb, Gnarly Woods pipe.)

I have tried 160/158/155/153/150 mains, 48/45/42/40/38 pilots, and all 5 needle clip positions for both 1173 & 1174 needles. I still can't get "there". And H1R, MX2T and K2 all cause spooge.

I've documented my jetting efforts since July'03, so I picked up yesterday where I last left off. In my latest round of testing, 150/38/1174-2nd clip from bottom, I adjusted the AS from 0.5-2.5 turns CCW. Engine warmed up, rode for a moment or two to allow carb to adjust to changes, slowed to a crawl in 2nd gear and wicked the throttle. AS 2.5 CCW caused the engine to die on throttle wick, all other clip positions had momentary delay before RPM increase. AS turned into the stop kills the engine. Oh yeah, I took the float bowl off and sprayed cleaner in every hole on that carb before my test.

I'm thinking about "punting" and buying JD's Jetting Guide to give me a baseline. Any reason why I shouldn't?
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Post by IdahoCharley »

JD's jetting guide will NOT give you the baseline setting your looking. (It is not magical)

It is a comparative excel spread sheet program which indicates relative changes in jetting for changes in needles, slides, pilot and main jets. It is useful for forcasting changes likely necessary for temperature and elevation changes. And is useful for identifying what different combination of needles, jets, and slides should memic or enhance certain areas in the fuel curve.

Don't misunderstand me, I really LIKE, USE, and ENDORSE the JD jetting guide but did not want you to think that the magic combination of jetting was going to appear with a JD's jetting guide purchase.

His only reference to the KDX in the program is that CEL-3 or CEK-2, PJ 42, MJ 155, Slide 6.5; at an altitude of 1000' and temperature of 65 degrees should be a starting point based upon throttle position. This same information has been presented or referenced in this forum and the "one which must not be mentioned" LOL on this site. :?
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Post by KDXer »

I know it's been said before but don't jet by spooge. If I recall correctly CC couldn't stop spoogin' (well his bike anyway) and solved this issue by adding tolulene to his fuel. Jetting alone just didn't cut the mustard. Different engine mods, porting, etc I know, but I'm just using that as an example to show that you can't jet by spooge.

Is it the stock silencer ??

Whats ya carb ?? RB'd or not ??
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Post by KDXer »

wanaride wrote:to come (Lord willing)...DF3 reed cage & RB carb mod.
That answers that.

Have you done any plug chops ??

What altitude and temps are you tuning in ?? :grin:
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Post by wanaride »

85deg F, not sure what altitude but it isn't too high, Turbine Core II S/A. I'm not too worried about the spooge because I've read that others couldn't eliminate it no matter how lean they went. I am concerned, however, that the front wheel will NOT loft for a throttle wick during a slow 2nd gear crawl; that would be a nice trick for log crossings.

No plug chops yet but I guess I need to do that this coming weekend. Is there an easy way to remove the threaded part of the plug or is a hacksaw the only way?

Idahocharley, thanks for the JD feedback, that is exactly what I needed to hear.
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Post by KDXer »

When did you last pack the silencer ?? I mean could this be the spooge reason ??

I put it in a vice, give it a quick once around with a hacksaw so it has at least a 1mm groove all the way around, I have a big nut that threads on a few turns and jams up so I put a socket on it and snap the threaded piece right off. (If that makes sense) :rolleyes:
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Post by canyncarvr »

The 200 won't pick up the front wheel (loft) with a qwick throttle wick during a 2nd gear crawl.

Good throttle response? Yes. Wheelie? No.

Maybe it's just me.

Why would you WANT it to do that, anyway? Well..I wouldn't. I'd be flat irritated if it DID.

I fussed with my bike a good bit just to get it to STOP doing that..but that was in 1st gear..on steep hills to boot. I want the bike to GO...no looping, no wheelspin.

Once your S/A is full-a-goo, jetting changes aren't going to change what comes out the back-end for quite awhile...if at all.

My stock cylinder ran with a fine white powder on the S/A snout..never a speck of spoo nowhere. After it was ported? THAT is the problem.........

Was it IC that found the speck of crud in the pilot circuit that was messing up his kid's bike? I think so. He found the air screw to have little or no effect, I think. You might ask him specifically WHERE he found the offending tailing.

For $10, he might tell 'ya where!! :wink:

Just kidding....

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Post by KDXer »

Might be a good time to spring for that RB carb you've been wantin' (says he who's been saving forever to get his). Thinking about what CC said and last riding my bike I would say in second gear, walking speed, upto 1/2 throttle squirts it would / should jerk forward unloading the front end not really a wheelie. With a bit of revs and clutch the front will come up easily in second gear. Its not really until after 6k on my bike that the front will loft with ease.
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Post by wanaride »

Thanks guys. Truth is, I've been wanting to learn to wheelie, and being able to do it without jerking up on the bars is attractive 'cause my wrist is still healing. I remember reading skipro's comments about wheeling while crawling in 2nd, and I thought that was THE indicator of proper jetting. Since I haven't achieved this level of performance, I assumed that my jetting was wrong.

Overall throttle response is good, wheel definitely lofts in 1st gear and will loft in 2nd or 3rd with a clutch pop.

I repacked my S/A last winter and it wasn't too bad then; I have minimal riding since that repack.

Yes, I've been thinking about sending my carb to Mr. Black, and with a vacation coming up, that might be the time!
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Post by Colorado Mike »

If you do that, consider sending your head in to get reshaped. I wish I had.
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Post by fuzzy »

You'll eventually learn the smooth combo of clutch and throttle control...
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Post by skipro3 »

My bike will loft the front wheel 2nd gear crawl by wicking the throttle 1/4 turn. Why do I want this? as proof it's jetted correctly at that throttle and rpm setting. Do I find it useful, yup; when crossing logs, roots, rocks. Seems I remember CC augering into a log recently and cursing because he didn't loft the front wheel. The trick after setting up the AS and jetting for this kind of performance is learning how to use it. It really makes the bike respond instantly without any hesitation. Do I know how to use it? Well, Let's just say I'm learning. But I would rather learn how to manage the performance my bike is capable of rather than detuning it to my current abilites. :mrgreen:

You described a hesitation or stall. How much throttle are you giving it? When you say it stalls or near stalls; mine did that due to a lean bog at that throttle setting. CC set me right and I bumped the clip on the needle down two positions to run richer.

You really, really, really need to do a real throttle chop on a fresh plug. Be sure you KNOW how this is done and ask questions if not. It's very important to do this correctly if you want results that are repeatable and compareable. The WOT plug chop is not the end-all for jetting. It just tells you you are near the point of burning fuel efficiently. Seat-of-pants is where the final jetting takes place and it sounds like that is where you are trying to start from. Do the plug chop. With the right main, mess with the needle on the 1/4 throttle wick along with the AS; setting the AS for the optimum with each needle clip change, starting from scratch.

Also, that main will need to be adjusted based on ambient air temp and elevation changes. If you set up the main on a hot afternoon, then start messing with the needle and AS a week or so later on a cold morning, you are going to confuse yourself. Swapping fuel and oil all over the place; brands, ratios, octane ratings will drive you nuts trying to jet. Stick with one combination of oil and gas, then don't mess with that until you have the bike jetted to run right. Then if you want to experiment with spooge control, go for it.

The art of tuning a carb has much to do with the consistancy you apply to each step; overlook, skip or ignore something that may have changed and you will be running in circles wondering why you can't get it right.
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Post by jackpiner57 »

Unless you've completely cleaned out your pipe and silencer, you are still getting spooge from all that oil in there. It could take a while for it to all come out.

My bike smokes and spooges , but I like the way it runs. At least I know it's well lubed. :oops:
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Post by Indawoods »

Hey Wanna....

What is your elevation? That's an important question...

I'm at around 600' and in the 80-90+ heat range. So, she is jetted pretty lean if the temps dropped in the 70 range.

My carb is RB'd but I run a 150/40/CEK at the 3'rd position. No spooge at all.... wick it in second from a slow crawl and it will lift as the R's build. WFO...my front end doesn't like the ground.... just kinda floats.... still has contact but like riding on a cloud. It's almost magical.

I would suggest getting it RB'd. My spooge problem went away... it was never that bad but my jersey's have permanent speck on em. :wink:
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Post by wanaride »

Elevation 811 feet according to the web...

Should I sort out my jetting first and then send in the carb for the RB mod, or do the RB mod first?
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Post by m0rie »

I'd send it to RB first, might as well start from the get go with the RB modded carb.
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Post by KDXGarage »

If you ARE going to get the RB carb mod done, then I would wonder if he needs any "what was your correct jetting with the stock carb" information. If he doesn't, then I would wait until after you got it back (assuming you are sending it very soon).
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Post by canyncarvr »

Note that Ski has a 220. Big difference in the 'wheel lofting' area between the 200/220.

re: 'AS 2.5 CCW caused the engine to die on throttle wick, all other clip positions had momentary delay ..'

That isn't clear to me. I don't know if it's clip positions that all had delays, or different AS settings that did. Or both?

There should be no delay..throttle reponse can be good...still won't be popping the front wheel up on level ground.

Something other than a 'B' slope needle will work well in an UNmodified carb, too. You could try a CEL with the oem #5 slide.

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Post by wanaride »

Thanks CC, I didn't realize Ski had a 220.

What I meant to say (but failed) was that there was a momentary delay for the revs to build, from throttle closed to WFO, when crawling slowly in 2nd. (150/38/1174) This delay occurred for all AS positions (0.5-2.5 CCW) and clip positions 1-2 (from bottom) on the 1174 needle. The only exception was 2.5CCW on position 2; this caused the engine to baaaawaaaah and die when I ripped the throttle open. I didn't get around to checking positions 3-5 because I ran out of daylight!

I had tried 150/38/1173 1-5 (all clip positions) for AS=0.5-2.5 last July and I never achieved instant wheel loft. I thought that the richer 1173 needle could be the culprit, so I decided to use the stock 1174 needle this time around.

Sounds like I'm pissing time away...I just need to bite the bullet and cart the bike off to a field so I can do a plug chop.
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Post by canyncarvr »

....and it's a 220 with a torque pipe, too!

Again, the 'instant wheel loft' probably isn't going to happen on the 200. Note that Inda says his bike will pick up the front wheel, but it's NOT a torque hit thing, but a power thing:
Inda wrote:...it will lift as the R's build.
(bold my emphasis)

And THAT isn't going to happen if you don't have traction. Probably in a lot of soil conditions you will get wheelspin instead of front end 'loft'.

Which brings up another issue, sorta. Similar to wheelspin (useless), the front end wanting to come up on the (too) easy side of things is also useless. If the bike is pulling up, it's NOT moving forward. Now...don't pick at that statement to an absurd degree. My earlier statement was referring to situations with my bike when the front end would NOT stay down...regardless what amount/type/method of throttle control was used. Now, my bike lifts just fine...when I want it to, and stays planted and moves forward when I want it to.

This a repeat from another thread..last weekend I went up a hill I've been on a number of times before..usually with some wheelspinning, some swearing and not always with arrival at the top. It was a piece of cake. Even in dry conditions the bike had such a strong pull that I could just GO. This hill has never been so easy..and as I said, the conditions were far from terrific. A large part of that is the toluene mix I was using.

My point is that wheelspin and front end loops can be a real PITA and most of the time you're better off without 'em. Still, I could pick up the front end with a simple throttle flick when I needed to get the oem forks out of a too narrow/deep rut.

I had my cake and ate it too!! :wink:

A whole lot of that is due to needle selection. Some folks (like Inda) like the 'C' needle. For me it hits too hard too soon in the throttle range. When I'm approaching a water bar (for example) and want to 'loft' the bike over it, the bike needs traction and pull. If there is a too big 'hit' too low in the throttle, I get wheelspin..spit dirt..do not get the bike into the air over the obstacle.

You can relate it to a four-stroke bike. There is enough power in a good 4-stroke to grunt the rear wheel and keep moving. With a lot of two strokes, the power is made either too high in the rpm range, or the hit is too big-too quick so you don't get that 'chug' or grunt type of rear wheel movement...but wheelspin or a loopy front-end.

blah blah blah....

re: '..a momentary delay for the revs to build..'

That is different from what generally is referred to as a 'hesitation'. A quick/good throttle response does not have to mean that the revs quickly build but that acceleration immediately begin.

I see a similarity in yours and Inda's statements (revs 'building') that is saying the same thing. I guess that makes them similar to me. :shock:

Generally, the 200 isn't going to pick the front up in 2nd without some clutch.

BTW...are you running a 13T CSS? Then forget it for sure (IMO).

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