Power valves, again
- Julien D
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Power valves, again
Dang. Pullin the jug to have it sent off for re-plating and fit to a wiseco piston. I found the valves inoperable again. The configuration it was jammed into seemed to make for a pretty decent overall ride, lol. Sub-valves closed, center valve stuck open.
Anyway, I haven't pulled the jug yet, just the pipe. I'm not sure yet exactly what happened, but have some ideas. This will be the 3rd set of valves in just under 2 years.
Just venting. I'll be back after I'm finished pulling the jug and checking everything out. Jug will go off to lancourt for plating. Hopefully I'll get some gift certificates or something for x-mas so I can buy valves.
Anyway, I haven't pulled the jug yet, just the pipe. I'm not sure yet exactly what happened, but have some ideas. This will be the 3rd set of valves in just under 2 years.
Just venting. I'll be back after I'm finished pulling the jug and checking everything out. Jug will go off to lancourt for plating. Hopefully I'll get some gift certificates or something for x-mas so I can buy valves.
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- canyncarvr
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I'm interested in hearing what broke! Seems an odd way for it to have stuck.
Them KIPS parts is spendy!
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- Julien D
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It's an 89.
Well, there were several problems. I am not sure in what order things failed.
#1 - the screw which holds the carrier for the main rod on the RH side of the engine was loose.
#2 - e-clip gone from behind the funky little washer thing that the pin catches in, and the funky little washer thing fallen off and wedged in behind the extended rod was what had the center valve held open.
#3 - RH sub valve in 3 pieces
#4 - LH sub valve in 3 pieces
The center valve looks fine, as does the idler gear, and the main rod. Perhaps lock tight on the screw on the RH side would have prevented all this, perhaps not. Can't tell if it bound up there first and caused havoc, or if the subvalves broke first and bound everything up.
Results are the same either way. It'll be well after the first of the year before I'm likely to have the bike back out again. I am considering sending the spare cylinder I have with gouges in the bore off to be welded/replated. My existing cylinder could just be stripped and replated, but I am considering the possibility of the journals down in the cylinder that the subvalves rotate in being worn to the point of causing slop and making things break.
Not looking forward to purchasing my 3rd set of sub vavles.
I also frequently consider trying to track down an H series cylinder. I am 99% sure I could bolt it on with minimal altercation to my existing bottom end. Only the gear a-top the rod from the governor looks different in the parts schematics.
J.
Well, there were several problems. I am not sure in what order things failed.
#1 - the screw which holds the carrier for the main rod on the RH side of the engine was loose.
#2 - e-clip gone from behind the funky little washer thing that the pin catches in, and the funky little washer thing fallen off and wedged in behind the extended rod was what had the center valve held open.
#3 - RH sub valve in 3 pieces
#4 - LH sub valve in 3 pieces
The center valve looks fine, as does the idler gear, and the main rod. Perhaps lock tight on the screw on the RH side would have prevented all this, perhaps not. Can't tell if it bound up there first and caused havoc, or if the subvalves broke first and bound everything up.
Results are the same either way. It'll be well after the first of the year before I'm likely to have the bike back out again. I am considering sending the spare cylinder I have with gouges in the bore off to be welded/replated. My existing cylinder could just be stripped and replated, but I am considering the possibility of the journals down in the cylinder that the subvalves rotate in being worn to the point of causing slop and making things break.
Not looking forward to purchasing my 3rd set of sub vavles.
I also frequently consider trying to track down an H series cylinder. I am 99% sure I could bolt it on with minimal altercation to my existing bottom end. Only the gear a-top the rod from the governor looks different in the parts schematics.
J.
- canyncarvr
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Re: 'Only the gear a-top the rod from the governor looks different in the parts schematics.'
Maybe...but put 'em side by side and they aren't the same at all. the angle of the dangle is all differnt. The 'E' runs fairly straight up..the 'H' is at quite an angle..all that to take into account the completely different design of the two setups in the cylinder.
I'm sure it's doable. It's the modification part (of course) that's the issue. If the drive of the two is similar enough, you could modify the RH engine cover..kind'a frankenstein an 'E' and an 'H' cover to fit the 'H' governor rod to your 'new' 'H' cylinder.
Welding? Langcourt has said they can plate to a considerable thickness. If it's only a scrape, they could probably plate on top of it. If it's a break..well, that's different.
Wow...looks like you have your work cut out for you.
Another advantage of the 'H'...when it breaks sub-valves...it just blow's 'em into the pipe!! They don't stay in the cylinder to get pounded by exhaust pressure waves and wobbly the holes they're sittin' in.
Well...mine did.
Good Luck.
Maybe...but put 'em side by side and they aren't the same at all. the angle of the dangle is all differnt. The 'E' runs fairly straight up..the 'H' is at quite an angle..all that to take into account the completely different design of the two setups in the cylinder.
I'm sure it's doable. It's the modification part (of course) that's the issue. If the drive of the two is similar enough, you could modify the RH engine cover..kind'a frankenstein an 'E' and an 'H' cover to fit the 'H' governor rod to your 'new' 'H' cylinder.
Welding? Langcourt has said they can plate to a considerable thickness. If it's only a scrape, they could probably plate on top of it. If it's a break..well, that's different.
Wow...looks like you have your work cut out for you.
Another advantage of the 'H'...when it breaks sub-valves...it just blow's 'em into the pipe!! They don't stay in the cylinder to get pounded by exhaust pressure waves and wobbly the holes they're sittin' in.
Well...mine did.
Good Luck.
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- Julien D
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Thanks Carvr. I took a look at some pics and see what you mean by "the angle of the dangle. Did some more lookin at pics of RH crank case halves, and I'm pretty sure they're the same. So yeah, I'd either have to frankenstein the covers, or take chances on an H series inner clutch cover fitting an E series. Of course, the only reason that I would want the H series pieces is for the newer KIPS design. I prefer the power delivery of this E series engine.
For now I'm pretty set on sending in this gouged cylinder for repair. I think It'll need some welding. It's gouged as if a circlip or piece of ring was banging around in there. One of the sub ports has gouges across it. This cylinder was given to me in a box of bits and pieces when I picked up the bike. My cylinder is in better condition in the bore, but the little holes at the bottom of the sub ports seem visibly larger in my current cylinder than in this other one... I have read some info from other folks about the wear down there causing the sub valves to bind and shear. I have no method for measuring way down inside there, but that's what it looks like.
I wondered about drilling that out, and pressing in a brass bushing for the sub valve to ride in? That could be an option for my current cylinder.
For now I'm pretty set on sending in this gouged cylinder for repair. I think It'll need some welding. It's gouged as if a circlip or piece of ring was banging around in there. One of the sub ports has gouges across it. This cylinder was given to me in a box of bits and pieces when I picked up the bike. My cylinder is in better condition in the bore, but the little holes at the bottom of the sub ports seem visibly larger in my current cylinder than in this other one... I have read some info from other folks about the wear down there causing the sub valves to bind and shear. I have no method for measuring way down inside there, but that's what it looks like.
I wondered about drilling that out, and pressing in a brass bushing for the sub valve to ride in? That could be an option for my current cylinder.
- Julien D
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Almost identical to the previous failure. I probably had maybe 20 hours on it? I am not sure when it broke. I did notice last time we were out that something was not right. I was expecting a problem with compression, as I knew I was due for re-plate and piston/rings.
Crappy cell phone pic. wife made off with the camera....
Crappy cell phone pic. wife made off with the camera....
- canyncarvr
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Re: 'I have no method for measuring way down inside there, but that's what it looks like.'
Use drill bits as a gauge?
Seems it's some sort of serious side-wise pressure to break 'em like that. If the bottom is wallered out that bad..the bore the drum fits in can't be good.
Don't know about drilling/bushing. I doubt a drill would be stable enough..and bits dont drill round holes, either. OR flat bottoms.
You could use an end mill. Set it up with a drill bit that just fits, change to the mill. They aren't usually very long that I've seen, though.
A machine shop shouldn't be that expensive.
Use drill bits as a gauge?
Seems it's some sort of serious side-wise pressure to break 'em like that. If the bottom is wallered out that bad..the bore the drum fits in can't be good.
Don't know about drilling/bushing. I doubt a drill would be stable enough..and bits dont drill round holes, either. OR flat bottoms.
You could use an end mill. Set it up with a drill bit that just fits, change to the mill. They aren't usually very long that I've seen, though.
A machine shop shouldn't be that expensive.
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- Julien D
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yeah, I'd have to take it to the machine shop for sure. I'm taking the gouged cylinder in today. Tested with a drill bit or three, and the holes in the bottom of that cylinder are a better match to the valves. My buddy at the little shop can get me a better deal from lancourt then sending it in myself, so I'll see what he thinks and if it's do-able, it'll get sent out today or tomorrow.
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- canyncarvr
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Curious..you're sending a Wiseco with..or Langcourt is supplying one?
Or...they're finishing it without a piston to finish it TO?
Or...they're finishing it without a piston to finish it TO?
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- Julien D
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I sent a wiseco piston in with it. Got the piston a while ago to keep on hand as a spare. One of those ebay deals I could not pass up. I think I gave $70 shipped for new in box piston, rings, circlips, and wrist pin.
As for the price, I work on this guys computers for him for free and he passes on most or all of his dealer discounts to me on parts and such. Really good guy. I'm still skeptical that they can repair it for that price though. To me this cylinder looked pretty trashed as far as the bore was concerned. I'll find out for sure after they get it and call back.
I'll get some pictures up here of Langcourts work when I get it back!
As for the price, I work on this guys computers for him for free and he passes on most or all of his dealer discounts to me on parts and such. Really good guy. I'm still skeptical that they can repair it for that price though. To me this cylinder looked pretty trashed as far as the bore was concerned. I'll find out for sure after they get it and call back.
I'll get some pictures up here of Langcourts work when I get it back!
- canyncarvr
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Do you check piston-to-cylinder clearance? Ring gap?
I'd like to know how Langcourt sets up a Wiseco, so would appreciate knowing those numbers.
Oh...do you have a PN for the Wiseco you got? Wibby's seen some 'E' series pistons on ebay..but the PN is different from the current Wiseco numbering system (sumthin' like that). Maybe they're NOS?
I'd like to know how Langcourt sets up a Wiseco, so would appreciate knowing those numbers.
Oh...do you have a PN for the Wiseco you got? Wibby's seen some 'E' series pistons on ebay..but the PN is different from the current Wiseco numbering system (sumthin' like that). Maybe they're NOS?
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- Julien D
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Hey sorry, I missed this post.
Yeah, it was 597PS I think? It is a different part than the current wiseco offering. Right now the only thing from wiseco for the KDX is the prolite, right? This piston is a protru, and the box is marked 86-93. This makes me think the piston is NOS from 93, since a 94 piston would be for 86-94. Don't ya think? Looks a little different from a prolite piston too. I'll get some pics before I stitch it up.
Yes, I will check the ring end gap and piston clearance when I get it back. I'll let you know how it measures out.
edit*
just saw this,
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-1986 ... 335579b451
and it's an 86 - 95 597PS pro-lite. Interesting... The box mine was in def said protru.
Yeah, it was 597PS I think? It is a different part than the current wiseco offering. Right now the only thing from wiseco for the KDX is the prolite, right? This piston is a protru, and the box is marked 86-93. This makes me think the piston is NOS from 93, since a 94 piston would be for 86-94. Don't ya think? Looks a little different from a prolite piston too. I'll get some pics before I stitch it up.
Yes, I will check the ring end gap and piston clearance when I get it back. I'll let you know how it measures out.
edit*
just saw this,
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NOS-1986 ... 335579b451
and it's an 86 - 95 597PS pro-lite. Interesting... The box mine was in def said protru.
- canyncarvr
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I put the PN into google..got ONE hit that's a piston..and that was the ebay auction you linked too!
Rare birds, I guess.
Rare birds, I guess.
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- Mr. Wibbens
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Talked to a parts guy couple days agocanyncarvr wrote:Do you check piston-to-cylinder clearance? Ring gap?
I'd like to know how Langcourt sets up a Wiseco, so would appreciate knowing those numbers.
Oh...do you have a PN for the Wiseco you got? Wibby's seen some 'E' series pistons on ebay..but the PN is different from the current Wiseco numbering system (sumthin' like that). Maybe they're NOS?
He said Wiseco changed their numbering system awhile back
No such thing as an "E" piston. They the same from 86-06 (afaik)
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- Julien D
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So by his account, my pro-tru piston is the same as the pro-lite piston? Perhaps...
Hopefully I get the box back with my piston from langcourt so I can further the discussion with pics. I'm quite sure that it's not specifically an "e series" piston, but it is a different piston than the pro-lite which we get from wiseco today, or in 1994 apparently.
Hopefully I get the box back with my piston from langcourt so I can further the discussion with pics. I'm quite sure that it's not specifically an "e series" piston, but it is a different piston than the pro-lite which we get from wiseco today, or in 1994 apparently.
- canyncarvr
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Re: 'So by his account, my pro-tru piston is the same as the pro-lite piston?'
That doesn't follow.........
Because the pistons from Wiseco now are the same for the 'H' and the 'E' KDX200 (and they are according to Wiseco's catalog), that does not mean that a NOS piston (complete with different PN) is the same as the pro-lite (current production) piston.
Re: 'I'm quite sure that it's not specifically an "e series" piston, but it is a different piston than the pro-lite which we get from wiseco today..'
Very well may be..probably is.
I would hope that Wiseco put SOME research and improvement to their product over 15 years.
One thing I would bet on...that the 'old' piston is quite a bit heavier than the 'new' piston.
That doesn't follow.........
Because the pistons from Wiseco now are the same for the 'H' and the 'E' KDX200 (and they are according to Wiseco's catalog), that does not mean that a NOS piston (complete with different PN) is the same as the pro-lite (current production) piston.
Re: 'I'm quite sure that it's not specifically an "e series" piston, but it is a different piston than the pro-lite which we get from wiseco today..'
Very well may be..probably is.
I would hope that Wiseco put SOME research and improvement to their product over 15 years.
One thing I would bet on...that the 'old' piston is quite a bit heavier than the 'new' piston.
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