Plug Fouling

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mr_munt
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Plug Fouling

Post by mr_munt »

Does anyone have problems with plugs fouling on warm up? If I don't let it idle up to amost running temp it'll run for fine for 100 yards and then foul out with out warning. I have taken it to the shop and they don't know what the problem could be either.
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Post by Indawoods »

Fuzzy has the same problem on his WR.... I just thought it was a Blue problem.
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Post by skipro3 »

For some reason, your fuel is not atomizing enough. It might be the grade of gas or the brand of oil you use in your pre-mix. Could also be the air cleaner is not allowing enough air to flow. How often do you clean the filter, what oil do you use for that, what brand air filter, etc. Tell us about what you use and may be there are suggestions to modify that.
Last edited by skipro3 on 11:52 am May 15 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by fuzzy »

LOL! Yeah, that's a new one for me. Runs fine during warm-up. Takes off w/ good response, then fouls w/o warning. The plugs didn't even look that bad upon inspection. I have changed my ignition to a '97 ignition which was supposed to have a better spark mapping for woods use. My guess is NOT! I'm going to try and changed my ign back to stock, and see what happens next time. I also think I was rich on the jetting even though the bike was running crisply. Need to do a chop next time, and go from there. Inda also noticed what would be a slight leak around my cyl base. This could have something to do w/ my problem also...

I never really had any probs if I was running the stock carb.....Aside from nearly uncontollable power delivery :mrgreen: I ran a KDX carb on there last year(drastically rejetted), and had some fouling probs. It just needs sent to RB, and it'll be fine(Slide way too rich).

To answer your question, I'll ask you one. What jetting are you running? I hate giving straight jetting reccomendations, but since you live where we do I think you could take Fredette's jetting to the letter(minus the needle). That's what I'm running in my '93, and it runs great. Could use some fine tuning from time to time, but is never off enough to mess w/ unless it gets real cold out. NEVER fouls a plug. If you're already running clean jetting, then just let your bike warm-up?? This is good practice anyway...

Edit....Ski sneaked a response in there while I was typing. I was thinking this as well. I had added fresh gas before riding, but at least half the tank was stabilized fuel from last year. I've now found that my John Deere burns two-cycle fuel just fine, and I'll never run old gas again....Just had no where to put it!! I tried this sucessfully w/ the JD after these mishaps on the last ride. Now mowing the lawn just makes me want to ride because the exhaust smells sooooo good :mrgreen:
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Post by canyncarvr »

When you say what jetting you're running, please include your bike info. The 220/220 don't have the same carb, cylinder, head and certainly not the same jetting.


I can see it now...you have 48/165/1174-3 (or is it 1173 oem?)..everyone assumes you're riding a 200..come to find out...somebody jetted it LIKE a 200 thinking it would then RUN like a 200!!


...and it's a 220.

Anyway...Like fuzzy said..more info is needed.

Also, what does 'warm up' mean? What's that process? For example: If you don't have your choke off after just a few seconds you're getting closer to fouling a plug with every stroke.

Noooo...that doesn't apply to those running on the lean edge with a 38 or so pilot. You might have to have your choke on for a bit....

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Post by mr_munt »

Thanks for the replies... The oil I run is Honda HP? The jetting is stock ( Hey I'm not a Mechanic ) I clean the air filter about every 15 hours or so and have tried every plug option available. The bike is a 03' 200 bone ass stock and very low hours.. I did change oils a couple time and found that the Honda seem's to run the best that I have found so far..
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Post by canyncarvr »

An '03 200 should have the jets listed above. Although it's way too rich for any decent performance to be had, it should be fouling plugs ALL the time...just a LOT of the time.

Did you buy it new? Some dealers change jetting thinking they are doing you a favor. Often they are not.

Depending on your riding conditions, 15 hours is way, Way, WAY, WAY (did I say WAY!! ?) too long between cleanings.

Let's start from scratch.

1. What plug is in the bike. What does 'every plug option available' mean?

2. Did you buy the bike new?

3. What is your warm up procedure..step by step.

4. How do you clean/oil the filter.

5. What do you mean when you say it fouls a plug? What happens exactly? (choke-cold 4-stroking and fouling are two different things)

Please answer by the numbers. Don't skip any. Any of the above separately or in some combination could be a problem.

You're going to end up needing to know by your own observation WHAT jets are in the bike.

It isn't uncommon for new bikes to need a carb disassembly/cleaning right off the bat.

Uh....bradf (IdahoCharley?) I think it was (on this forum) fought one for quite awhile until he found the little piece of junk/burr that was clogging up his lo speed (pilot) circuit in the carb.

No. It is not normal. It can be fixed.

Get'r done! :wink:

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Post by fuzzy »

Yeah, Like CC sed....Defintely answer all of those questions....

Need to tell us what's in your bike Jetting wise. Again, can probaly go straight off Fredette's rec's as a baseline....Just forget his needle choices, IMO...Go with what seems to be the favs of folks on thie board...CEK? for a hard pipe hit, and the DEK? for a more doscile power delivery. Regardless, even the stock needle w/ Fredette's pilot/main jet change will more than likely cure your plug fouling problem....Along w/ running a BR8ES in the case that you were running a '9'...Then you can come ride w/ me and Inda and we'll fix you up from there.... :mrgreen:

BTW, Fredette's rec's are here. Under "Carb Tuning." Lots of good newbie tuning stuff on here. We just got fed up w/ the owner of this site, and started our own. Nothing against Candain Dave that put all this info together:

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Post by canyncarvr »

To not discourage the 'I'm not a Mechanic'....I wouldn't be real surprised to find that a good (bad?) dose of 4-stroking is all he's dealing with. The idea of NOT letting it warm up makes me wonder if the choke is even off.

No wrenching required...just run it out!!

mr munt: We'll fix it right up!! ....as long as you don't mind dealing with a little verbiage along the way!! :wink:

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Post by mr_munt »

OK this is what I can tell you off the top of my head.
1. Every plug option means cross reference from NGK to different brands and I can remember the number but a hotter NGK that the dealer gave me.
2. Yes I bought the bike new.
3. Warm up , Turn on Gas, Pull Choke, Kick Bike Three to Four time :grin: Let it Idle until the KIPS is warm to the touch Turn off choke and see if it will Idle if not reapply choke until it just about to choke out.. then ride alittle let r smoke and see if it stays running..
4. Wash it then oil it with Klotz filter oil and wring out the extra/excess. ( and fifteen hours between cleaning is maybe alittle stretch...Maybe ten on average.)
5. I don't know what four stroking is. But it loads up and does not detonate and just flat dies. If I remove the plug and put a match to it the thing burns as well.
6. I don't mind a verbiage just as long as I'm learning something. ( I ain't the sharpest Knife in the drawer but I ain't no spoon..)
7. I will check out that web site as soon as I have some time. Thanks

Thanks Canyncarvr and Fuzzy.. :cool:
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Post by Indawoods »

Mm- You should not have the choke on but for a few seconds until you get your hand down there to flip it off. Right after fire...turn it off. If it will not idle then you may have some jetting to do.... I live in Illinois too and it is more than warm enough ... heck, even when it was chilly out, this has always been the case.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Yep. Choke off as soon as you can. If you wait until ANYthing is warm to the touch (pipe, KIPS, cylinder, head) the choke has been on too long.

The idea of soaking an air filter in oil and then wringing it out has never made sense to me. You're using way more oil than is necessary. With the air filter that soaked (wrung out or not) you are running even MORE rich than the already too rich oem jet-set gets you.

I'd suggest NoToil as an air filter system. You wash a NoToil oiled filter in the sink with NoToil soap and water. Heck...you can throw it in the washing machine if you like. Use NoToil spray filter oil. Spray it just enough to make it pretty much pink/red (the color of the oil), work it in with your hands, let it dry, grease the rim, stick it on. It makes filter service such a breeze that doing it every couple rides won't be a hassle.

That will give you a much better breathing filter and reduce the chances of plug fouling.

You should be running an NGK BR8ES. When you get you're jetting sorted out (and don't foul plugs anymore) a fine wire BR8EG is a good choice. Don't run any other brand of plug (imo and all that). NGKs are great sparkers.

4-stroking is a term used to describe a 2-stroke motor that is firing every other piston TDC (top dead center) event...like a 4-stroke engine does. A 2-stroke normally fires EVERY TDC event. It's a sputturing, gutless, smokin' mess, but it WILL generally clean out if you do a few 'wind sprints'. Open'r up and run it til it quits. Oh...I mean RIDE it..don't just sit still and WOT the thing (that makes me cringe when guys do that!!)

A fouled plug will not fire at all. You won't be going nowhere.

With your description of the choke being on until the kIPS cover is warm...AND a soaked air filter..those two things could be the entire problem.

You could try running the filter with NO oil on it for a bit. I don't mean for an afternoon, but for a couple of those 'wind sprint' runs to see how much difference that makes. As long as you're not riding though a duststorm you won't hurt anything. Keep it to a couple minutes and it will be fine.

You will likely need a new air filter. The petro products in the oil you're using won't get along with the water soluble NoToil. You may still find some NoToil kits that come WITH a filter. They used to do that all the time. They stopped doing it quite awhile back, but I've seen such kits in shops fairly recently still.

If you get another filter (good to have a few, actually), consider a TwinAir.

Wringing a filter will stress the joints to the point you will end up ruining it by literally tearing it apart. Hopefully, you won't find the holes when you're taking the thing OFF your bike!! :sad:

Regarding plug fouling in general...I haven't fouled a plug on my bike in years. The last two -EG plugs I've used I've run in the bike about a year. That's a bit long, probably changing it every six months would be a good idea. Obviously depends on how much you ride. When the weather is 1/2 decent, I'll ride 3-400 miles a month. It's not always 1/2 decent..may still ride, just not as far! :wink:

What is your airscrew (the brass one) set too? Have you set it for best throttle response or is it just set to some number of turns out?

Keep with us. The folks here can get your bike to running much better than it is now. You won't believe the power lurking in that little green 2-hunny!!

Have fun!!

Let us know how a choke off...different filter works!

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Post by mr_munt »

Thanks, When I get home tonight I should have some free time to tinker with it.. I would like to premise a couple things. I use to ride (20-25 years ago) and this is the first modern bike that I have owned and holly crap things are different. I use to go out kick the old RM's and Wring em' out very little maintence. Also on my keeping my Choke on until the KIP's is warm to the touch, that was the advice the dealer gave me when I took it to him. Thanks for all the advice and help and I would like to say this site is pretty cool..
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Post by KDXer »

From personal experience the LAST person you listen to or believe are dealers. IMHO
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Post by Indawoods »

Dealers know 4 stroke steet bikes better than anything... and I'm sure his brain was in that mode when he told you that. 2 strokers are a completely different animal.....
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Post by canyncarvr »

Certainly not all dealers are painted with the same stripe. That's obvious if just from the law of averages.

Still, it does seem odd the number of times dealers seem to be completely clueless.

What about the 4-stroking part? If you referenced that, I've missed it. Is that what you're calling 'plug foul'? Or...maybe someone else is saying the plug is fouled?

Certainly, that is a common symptom to be going on just before a going-to-foul plug completely goes away...but if the only time you deal with it is on a choke cold start..then the method can change to lessen that impact.

No one here is going to ding on you about what you don't know or understand or have a question about. If anyone errs it may be on the side of saying TOO MANY things about little stuff...but that's only because we don't want to miss anything.

There have been times (a true example) there have been days and days spent on trying to figure out why a rider could not get his pilot circuit adjusted correctly. Come to find out, he was turning the IDLE screw...not the AIR screw. It was assumed he knew which was which. Asking, 'Which screw are you talking about? What color is it?' might have been perceived as talking down to him...but that is exactly the question that ended up resolving the issue for him.

Anyone asking questions or offering suggestions is certainly interested only in sorting out the problem.

Cheers!


btw...if you would elucidate a bit on #5, I'd appreciate it. Definitvely, please...4-stroking? Dead? The former prior to the latter?

What plug are you running now?

Once a plug fouls, 'cleaning' it is of little use. You pretty much need a new one. Well, unless you have a sandblast box. Even so...I wouldn't want a blasted insulator sparking my bike. Sometimes they blow up all by themselves..without all the pits and damage from being blasted.

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