Gearbox/clutch question

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cramman
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Gearbox/clutch question

Post by cramman »

Hey guys... did some searching for "gear and engage" but didn't give me much.

felt the bike slipping out of gear under power the last time i rode so i cleaned out the tran fluid and got some new stuff in there...

Problem remains:

shift into 1st giver gas and goes nowhere.
put it on a stand - engage first and back wheel turns but ANY resistance (grab the tire) and the wheel stops turning.
when i give it gas on the stand the wheel doesn't turn any faster.

any ideas?

thanks everyone,
-=c
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Indawoods
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Post by Indawoods »

What oil were you using? Brand, type...
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Post by cramman »

yamalube 10-40

background: water pump seal was shot (tran oil was milky) - changed oil EVERY ride until i fixed it (4 rides). Did the mechanical seal, oil seal, and bearing.
didn't find anything questionable while i was working on it.

at the end of the last ride before i did the seal i really noticed the "slipping".

on the gas hard and no wheel spin (seemed to go neutral)... on the gas light and i could putt around.

after that i put the bike away, ordered the parts and did the work.

now with new oil and parts i'm still seeing the same issue, if not worse... it wont even get me rolling when sitting on the bike.

(thanks to everyone on this forum - did the searching and read up on the water pump seals)

-=c
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Indawoods
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Post by Indawoods »

You will have to disassemble the clutch... check for glazing on the plates. Check to see that they are in tolerance. I ruff them up with some sandpaper. Soak them in oil overnight and reassemble them.
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Post by cramman »

thanks inda... you rock...

forgot to mention that while i was doing the work (dont have a tonne of spare time) the right side was dry for a few days.. bearing was back-ordered etc etc..

so basically the last fluid that touched the clutch was junk, drained it, pulled it apart and left it dry... plates all frozen together perhaps?

kinda falls in line with your thinking i believe.

it's got fresh fluid in it now - will rip it apart on sat and take another look.

damn that engine runs nice tho... ripped apart for a week - put it back together and starts 2nd kick.

thanks again to the best forum in dirtbikes,
-=c
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Post by canyncarvr »

Re: 'felt the bike slipping out of gear under power..'

I understand that to be incorrect based on the other things you said. It is NOT slipping out of gear..it's staying IN gear just fine, but the clutch is indeed slipping.

Right?

Once the friction plates are contaminated, they tend to want to stay that way.

Like Inda said..take the clutch apart. But, I'd try some sort of cleaning process on the friction plates in an attempt to get the junk out of them.

That does git a bit iffy. I've read to wash 'em in soap and water. Dawn dishwashing soap is GREAT on grease. That's what they use to wash critters off after an oil spill.

I've read of some that use gasoline to clean the plates. Maybe...but gasoline as a solvent, although it does work well for it is quite unsafe. Vapors go BOOM, and when you're done with it..what are you going to DO with it?

If you know someone with a Saf-T-Kleen parts washer...use that.

A few cans of BraKleen will clean 'em up. BraKleen is a great degreaser.

Whatever you do clean them with, DO make sure you soak them in 'good' oil, like Inda said.

If you wash them in soap-and-water, let them dry (or flush them with BraKleen) to get the water gone.

Pay attention when you take the clutch out. There is a washer on the bottom of the pak AND another on the bottom of the hub. One or the other commonly gets lost..and the bike won't shift for diddle if that happens.

Re: ' plates all frozen together perhaps?'

No. Then the opposite would be taking place. No slip, no clutch engagement..it would be like riding with a broken clutch cable.

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Post by IdahoCharley »

I agree with IW and CC that it sure sounds like a clutch issue.

If you really don't have much time and considering the cleaning of the plates is an iffy process along with time consuming - I would just buy an aftermarket clutch kit (plates, fibers, springs) and replace the inners of the clutch. Fast and quick job, and you end up with a new clutch and it likely only costs $35-40 more than spending time and chemicals cleaning the fiber plates and then roughing them up with sandpaper all which contribute to more wear on the clutch.

My experience has been once a clutch starts to slip it glazes the plates really fast. The little dimples on the steels disappear (there may be some warpage if they have seriously overheated) but the fibers are the real problem. Oil glazing can be removed (using a figure eight pattern on fibers) and slightly roughing up the steels just does not last any significant time unless the glazing is very minor to start and the steels are not polished.
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Post by cramman »

you guys are awesome... thanks again for all the help.

i'll definitely take a peak for an aftermarket kit but in the meantime i'll get the old elbow "de"grease out and go to it.

CC - you are correct. Definitely in gear... clutch is slipping.

thanks again to all - i'll rip it apart and post some pics.

have a great weekend,
-=c
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Post by KarlP »

It sounds to me like the clutch was not put back together correctly.

It is really easy to NOT but it back together right
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Post by fuzzy »

If you know for a fact that it's simply slipping under load do yourself a favor and just put a clutch pack in it. They are cheap and last most woods riders a LONG time.

http://www.rockymountainmc.com/productD ... ilyId=3011
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Post by canyncarvr »

>|QBB<[/url]
KarlP wrote:It sounds to me like the clutch was not put back together correctly.

It is really easy to NOT but it back together right

It was noted as slipping before it was taken apart......but that does second a question I had but didn't ask:

WAS the clutch touched when the water pump work was done?

My first thought, having to do with cleaning the things, is based mostly on the tack I generally take: If it can be repaired, repair it. Replace it only if there is no other option.

But...IC's right. Once the plates are messed up there is an excellent chance they are not effectively OR reasonably repairable. With a new set of steels and fibers there is a whole lot of fussin' with stuff you don't have to mess with.

That brings up another issue: Are you familiar with the XR400 clutch plate 'upgrade'? If you're going to replace 'em all, now is the time to get a better friction plate.

There is info on this site about that. If you have a question about it, please ask specifically.

This is the visible difference:



It is not exactly a plate for plate swap.

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Post by fuzzy »

Cool! I was not aware.
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Post by canyncarvr »

An EBC kit (steel/fiber/springs) from RMMC: $87.99

My own personal foible..but I wouldn't use stiffer springs. There isn't anything wrong with the OEM springs that I've ever found..and 'more' in the case added pressure isn't anything I want when it comes to lever pressure, cable tension, actuator pressure, bearing stress.

Anecdotal..and therefore of no particular use..but I do understand higher spring pressure is sometimes needed. I replaced all parts on my street bike twice in an effort to get rid of clutch slip. 'Heavier' Barnett springs did end up being the answer. I don't care for the extra lever pressure..but it's sure preferable to a slipping clutch.

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Post by cramman »

>|<>QBB<
KarlP wrote:It sounds to me like the clutch was not put back together correctly.

It is really easy to NOT but it back together right
Never touched the clutch during the water pump service..

Finally have some time today to rip it apart...

will report back with what i find.

thanks again everyone,
-=c
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Post by KarlP »

Hmm.....
Sure the cable isn't hung up somewhere?
Seems like a lot of slipping going on if you can stop the wheel by hand with the bike on a stand......
Let us know.
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Post by canyncarvr »

>|<>QBB<
KarlP wrote:Hmm.....
Seems like a lot of slipping going on if you can stop the wheel by hand with the bike on a stand......
Agreed.

This comes under the 'Asking Too Many Questions' heading...and I didn't.

I don't care what the plates were contaminated/soaked/wet with, I don't see that resulting in a slip so bad that you could stop the wheel by hand.

Still...it may be a proverbial smorgasbord of problems. Maybe the clutch plates are so badly worn that a bit of antifreeze pushed them over the edge of useable.

I am assuming some things: Freeplay in the clutch is understood..both in importance and adjustment. If this turns out to be a misadjusted clutch I will throw up my hands in despair.

...and I haven't even eaten them...yet.

:wretch:


So...seeing as it was taken apart yesterday...what'd you find out?

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Post by cramman »

hey guys - sorry i haven't posted before now... haven't had a lot of time to work on the bike as the real job's been calling.

went out today to take the clutch out and found the clutch hub nut to be "unreasonably" hard to remove.

Flywheel is stabilized and i've gone at the nut to no avail. I honestly don't feel comfortable putting more "elbow" (more like shoulder) into it.

Any tricks? Do you use heat? I was reluctant to get the torch out as the abundance of "white metal" (?) scares me.

working nights all week so hopefully i can find some garage time during the day.

i have a clutch kit sitting here on the table so i'll swap that in as soon as i can get the basket out.

cheers,
-=c
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Indawoods
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Post by Indawoods »

I use a rattle gun... comes right off.
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Post by cramman »

nice... will give that a go tomorrow.

also, used KarlP's method of a wedged rag and bike in gear...

just felt i was putting too much pressure on it "manually" (socket wrench).

will give it a shot with the rattler tomorrow.

thx,
-=c
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Post by canyncarvr »

A repeated repeat...of a repeated already said thing...

WATCH for those washers: One under the basket, one between the hub and the basket.

Good luck!


Oh...if you got an XR400 clutch set FOR an XR400..you don't have enough plates, by the way. :shock:

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