EFM spring washers

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JoKDX220r
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EFM spring washers

Post by JoKDX220r »

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Post by canyncarvr »

I didn't look, and I don't have an EFM clutch, but I DO recall there is a great big 'NEVER PUT THEM IN LIKE THIS!!' somewhere on the EFM site.

Seems that had to do with concave being against the aluminum.

That's not going on in the pic....right?

Ha! I actually found it. It's in Ski's gallery:

Image

That does show a concave against the clutch 'body' don't it.....

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Post by JoKDX220r »

Hi CC,
Thanks for your answer,

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Post by canyncarvr »

The movement you're referring to?

Image

The red? The purple? ...or something else?

I'm saying I'm not sure what groove you're referring to.

It may be coincidence, but from the reflection on the bottom washer..that washer appears to be 'bent'...and that due to it not sitting on a flat surface.

These springs do move....they have to, after all. But...I would expect them to move evenly..their circumference evenly expanding as they are squished. That isn't going to happen if the surface they sit on is not flat..as in your pic.

Garry is the one to talk to, 'fer sure. Ask him if that spring seat is supposed to be flat. There are some rather rough machine marks under the washer...I'd wonder about that, too. That pattern in the large diameters visible woudln't matter..but that finish on aluminum underneath a spring steel washer?

I'm not a machinist..and I don't play one one TV..but that doesn't seem right to me.

So...ask Garry. Keep us posted!

Good luck!

Oh...and what is the shifting problem?

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Post by JoKDX220r »

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Thank you
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Post by jc7622 »

I don't know nothin, but from just looking at the pics and the instructions a better design would be to have flat washer on the bottom between the aluminum and the curved washer. That way the curved washer would be flattening out and sliding against a hard washer instead the soft aluminum.

The little KTM50's have washers in the clutch and usually do it that way.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Yeah...no kidding. Spring steel is some hard stuff to be rubbing...concave even..against aluminum. 'One each' aluminum at that.

A btw...but there was a question asked of EFM awhile back about them modifying a Hinson basket (harder aluminum). As I recall the answer was something like, rather have an OEM basket 'cuz it's easier to work with.

Still, with the crank welded directly to the trans input shaft..you could still shift a constant-mesh trans without any trouble, so don't know how the EFM part could cause the shifting trouble.

Guess it does, though....

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Post by skipro3 »

Here's my take;
(BTW, also posted it in your other thread)

I can just about guarantee your shifting problem isn't due to the auto clutch. The way the auto clutch works is that the RPM's must drop to almost idle before the clutch disengages and starts to slip. During normal up shifting, its just like shifting a clutched bike that isn't using the clutch to shift but instead matching RPM's to sync the gears in and out.

To test this, put the clutch in emergency mode. If you don't know what that is, check with Garry. Basically, it's taking one of the screws and putting in the spare threaded hole and locking the clutch up . This is so, if you loose or break your kick starter, you can bump start the bike and ride it like you broke the clutch cable in a standard clutch bike.

Also, I agree that a hardened flat washer should be used to protect the soft aluminum from the spring washer. Garry has a lifetime warranty, guess it's time to see if he'll honor that. The flat area isn't big enough to fully support the spring washer nor is it hard enough to withstand a lifetime of pressure contact. My opinion of course, but I'm not that stupid to not understand that a soft metal wearing against a hard metal is going to result in anything but some wear.
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Post by skipro3 »

I'll check my KX250 auto clutch this weekend. It needs to have the bolts torque checked anyway. I'll take photos and post too...
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Post by JoKDX220r »

Garry answer me,
About the shifting problem : "You shifting problem is probably you are letting off to much throttle, try hitting your kill button as fast as you can while shifting, you will find that thats as little as you need letting off. You have to make sure the motor is not pulling the bike, nor the bike not pushing the motor."

About the spring washers : "As far as the springs, put the smooth side down (l( face the washer and screw. "


"We take the round part of the spring and put it in the pocket facing down, both springs will face the same way. rounded side facing the inside of the motor. (l(---outside of motor. From doing the Harley clutch's with 30-40-50000 miles on them, the sharp edges of the springs will groove out the aluminum they sit on. So by turning them over, the round side of the spring facing the motor, this stop that."
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Post by canyncarvr »

Huh?

He plainly (and rather calmly it seems) states the opposite of what the directions say to do? Or..wherever ski got that diagram I linked to...I guessed they were directions included with ski's clutch(es).

That new information was NOT included with your clutch? Why the hell not!!?? Man...I'd be pissed. That is not the sort of thing I want to find to be 180º out from what I was told. Not considering the LOTS of money this thing costs.

Besides...such a simple engineering mistake..is being addressed only NOW? My heavens...I'd be purple!!

Re:' "You shifting problem is probably you are letting off to much throttle,'

I kind'a hope that isn't it. Why? 'Cuz that is such an obvious statement, such a given, it never occurred to me that you would be doing that. Certainly you 'float' the throttle just a flick when you shift!! Tell me it's so!!

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Post by JoKDX220r »

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Post by skipro3 »

Hmmmmm............

My diagram was exactly what Garry said and showed me. He approved it with the instructions he's sending out. That assembly is just that; assembled that way from his shop. So that spring washer facing cupped-side-down was his assembly and shipped that way. Mine was anyway, was yours that way JoKDX220r?

As far as my auto clutch goes, I'm going to put the same thin shim washer used between the two spring washers in first, then assemble as my dwg shows; |)|( like this with the flat washer against where the aluminum is being rubbed.

Sounds like 'ol Garry needs to be a little more accountable to getting this message out and for quality assurance of what is leaving his place since it's in violation of what he's telling you.

Happy New Year's EVE!!!!! :partyman:
(I just wanted to use the emo thingy)
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Post by jc7622 »

I don't know nuthin about the topic and EFM clutches, as usual, but the KTM50 guys who use only washer stacks (no springs) experiment with all kind of directions for stacking cupped and flat washers. They mainly go by total length, but also obsess over which types of washers are stacked next to each other. It has a big effect on the resistance of the whole stack to compress.

Stacking l((ll is not necessarily the same as l(l(l or l(l)l

I'm no expert on it since we use springs and flat washers with no cupped washers, but it makes a difference. It supposedly also really changes the characteristics of how the stack compresses if switching from regular steel washers to stainless steel washers.
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Post by JoKDX220r »

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Post by canyncarvr »

Re: 'Stacking l((ll is not necessarily the same as l(l(l or l(l)l'

Absolutely. Look at the huge variance in suspension shim stacks!

I read through your post on Garry's answer..I don't see any mention of a stack that matches your posted 'uneven pressure' drawing. No..I have no need of understanding that part..just wondering.

Seems just plain reasonable to have one of the thin flat washers between any curved washer and aluminum. In the drawings posted from ski's notes, there isn't going to be room in a 'stock' configuration, though.

I'm glad I don't have one...and don't know anything about messin' with 'em!

m0rie might have a line on some Unobtanium washers. Maybe even some Linoleum washers!! :shock:

.
.
..just kiddin' 'bout that last part...... :wink:

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Post by JoKDX220r »

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Post by Little Jeff »

>|<>QBB<
JoKDX220r wrote:"rounded side facing the inside of the motor. (l(---outside of motor"
Anyway I'll let them like that and see if it's work.. or not this spring...
Please let us know if that works out for you.
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Post by canyncarvr »

>|<>QBB<
JoKDX220r wrote:"rounded side facing the inside of the motor. (l(---outside of motor"
Anyway I'll let them like that and see if it's work.. or not this spring...
Looked right at it..and read it wrong. Thanks for the repeat!

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Post by Little Jeff »

Just got a email from Garry at EFM. I told him about the discussion here on this site. He said to go ahead and place the washers like this (l( instead of like this )l(. That way it will not dig into the soft aluminum. He told me to tell you guys that this will work just fine.
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