Kips removal

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Dale
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Kips removal

Post by Dale »

Cant get the power valves out of the cylinder. I removed the shaft, and the two screws holding the plate that holds the "valves" in. There is a lot of carbon on it, but I just can't pull them out. Am I missing something. Do I just need to pull harder? They did not move at all at first. Now I can pull it about 1/2 inch but it will not come out. Sprayed it with carb cleaner and wd 40 and i'm letting it sit for th night. I'm not talking about the two round valves, but rather the thick flat slide valve that is two pieces that is above the exhaust port. Thanks for any advice.
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Post by jc7622 »

It's been a couple weeks since I took mine out, so they are not fresh in my mind. I think mine just fell out after I unbolted everything. They came out easily. I will look at mine later this morning to see.
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Post by Indawoods »

THE shaft?

Are you talking about the one that goes across the jug? There are 2 shafts that go the other way that needs to be removed that the rotating valves ride on.
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Post by september9 »

I had to soak mine to get the valves out too. I don't remember what I used though. I may have just used straight gas.
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Post by lemmy »

I would like to take the KIPs out and clean it but I have never done this. What do I have to remove to get down to removing the KIPs if I don't want to do a full top end rebuild?
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Post by canyncarvr »

Need a better 'pitcher' of what's going on (like Inda said).

'Fer example: '...the two screws holding the plate that holds the "valves" in.'

They're are not 'two screws' that hold a 'plate' that holds the 'valves'.

There is a 'screw' that holds the main valves to the main shaft. There is a screw that holds the main valve COVER on, but that cover does not 'hold' the 'valves', it simply covers them. There are two 'screws' that retain the subport drum shafts, one for each shaft (left/right) on opposite sides of the cylinder..but I wouldn't call them 'screws' but bolts or maybe caps.

I probably got some plurals wrong in there someplace. My point is..I don't get your point.

What needs to be removed (presuming you have the cylinder off already..so the governor shaft is already disconnected..the shaft with the LHT 'must be supported to remove' nut on top):

Subport drum collars
Subport drums
Nut on the 'other' end of the mainshaft (under the slotted cover, LH side of cylinder).
Subport drum actuator rods (two of 'em..NOT identical, but LH and RH specific). They are behind the allen caps in the front of the cylinder.
Small allen holding the main vavles
Main valves and associated hardware
Main shaft

Image

Please do reference the parts you are referring to by number. That'll clear things up.

You cannot get to all the KIPS parts without taking the cylinder off the engine. Besides, it is much easier to take the KIPS apart AND retime it on assembly if the cylinder is sitting in front of you on a decently lit bench/table.

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Dale
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Post by Dale »

Got it!!! It was just caked in carbon. New piston/rings and a clean and functional Kips!! Fired it up at midnight.......wife not real happy. Sounded good though! I can't wait to check it out in the AM. Thanks for the help and the parts photo.

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Post by Dale »

CC I should have mentioned the model and year. It's a 98 220. It does have the two screws, 8mm heads, that hold in the "valve" or slide. I just had to use a small wooden dowel through the intake ports to tap the valve out. After that, I took it all apart and used a wire cup on a drill and a razor blade to remove all the carbon. It was bad. Everthing works great now. Thanks again for the help.
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Post by lemmy »

After reading this post and reading more about KIPs removal, I realize I can't remove the KIPs without taking the cylinder off. But is it possible to take enough off to see if the KIPs needs cleaning without a full top end tear down? I purchased my bike 2-3 months back but I have been injured and unable to ride until recently. The guy said he had just done a top end rebuild, but I have no idea if he cleaned the KIPs or not.
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Post by KarlP »

Lemmy-
Not really. If the bike runs O.K. and the KIPS can be actuated manually with ease, I'd leave well enough alone.
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Post by lemmy »

So how do you check if the KIPs can be actuated manually? Do you just remove the shaft with the LHT and then turn the gears on the right side of the engine?
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Post by KarlP »

No need.
The easiest way is to take the large slotted cover off the LH side of the cylinder and use a 10 mm nut driver. Also, with that cover off you should be able to see the KIPS activate as you rev up the motor.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Please note that Karl's suggestions include two different procedures..manual activation and engine activation. Each shows you something different, and one without the other leaves some other things out.

I would suggest looking up into the exhaust port while manually activating the KIPS via that nut. Look for proper (correctly timed) operation of the main valves and/with the two subport drums.

Take the pipe off to do that, btw... :wink:

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Post by lemmy »

So should I be able to turn that nut easily when the engine isn't running? I took the slotted cover off (but the exhaust wasn't off) and put just a small amount of torque on the 10mm nut and it didn't move. Do I need to take the LHT rod loose first?
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Post by canyncarvr »

1. Yes.
2. No.

The nut should turn easily. Note: THAT nut is NOT LHT.

You do NOT need to remove, loosen, or touch the RH side LHT nut.

The whole thing (KIPS) is run by a relatively small spring through the governor rod..it's not some kind'a chain drive off the crankshaft. A relatively small force is required to turn all the drums, ports, shafts and flappers.

As noted..you can see that rod (under the LH slotted cover) move with the engine running at activation speed (which is supposed to be around 6KRPM).

Certainly, if that shat does NOT move when the engine hits the trip point, something IS broken and needs to be resolved ASAP!

The ASAP part of that cannot be said strongly enough. If that shaft does not move, you may well be minutes away from complete engine destruction.

Nope. Not kidding. It's happened before.

I realize you have had yours apart (applicable to Dale...not lemmy). What I said still applies. If the governor rod is NOT being actuated properly, that may be because it's broken..and it's that broken piece that can cause a lot of damage.
Last edited by canyncarvr on 11:59 am Oct 22 2008, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by lemmy »

Ok, thanks for your help. I am going to first take the slotted cove off and start up the engine and see if it activates when i rev up the engine. If it does, then I will take the exhaust off and manually actuate it and see if I can see the sub ports and valve opening and closing.

I have read that it kicks in around 6000 RPMs, but what is the ballpark idle speed of the KDX? I have a RPM meter that has a 2-stroke setting and it just clips around the spark plug wire. It shows the idle to be at about 5000 RPMs (4-stroke setting says 10,000 RPMs) and if I adjust it down to about 4500 it sounds like it is about to die. I was just wondering how hard will I have to rev it up to get it to actuate.
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Post by canyncarvr »

:hmm: Huh?

You do know what 5000RPM sounds like?

It's not an idle sound!!!

Your meter is hose-eh-vooed, s'pect.

I don't know what the actual RPM is a KDX likes to idle. It don't sound a lot different than other bikes I've had outfitted with a tach. I'd guess 800RPM is going to be pretty low, and 1200RPM is going to be a tad high.

It won't be 'hard' to hit 6KRPM. A blip of the throttle will do that. OK...not 'blip' by Webster definition..maybe a 'tweak' on the gas.

Like Karl said..if you see the rod move on the LH side..and the bike runs OK, I wouldn't worry about it.

But...if you feel the need to 'adjust' a 5000KRPM idling bike because that's what a meter says to do (you don't recognize that it's not even close to that engine speed)..further inspection might not be a bad idea. I'm sayin' you might not KNOW that it's running OK or running like the KIPS isn't working at all!

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Post by lemmy »

No, you got it wrong. I am just saying that is what that meter says (it works find on my car in 4-stroke mode, I just don't know why it doesn't work on my 2-stroke). I know that it isn't idling at 5k or even 4k. Maybe I worded it wrong. I wasn't adjusting the idle anyway. I was messing with the jetting and adjusting the air screw and looking at the RPMs increase/decrease. I was just wondering if the idle was something like 2k on this bike or something like that.

But the reason I am interested in the function of the KIPs is that it isn't running that great. It have gone through the carb, made sure the filter is clean, inspected/cleaned the reeds, and repacked the silencer and it still has no low end power. Also, it will idle fine when I first start it and for the first hour of riding, but it slowly gets to the point where it won't idle, even if I screw in the idle screw all the way.
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Post by canyncarvr »

OK OK....
I wasn't pinging on you about anything. That you put on a meter that had a bogus readout and then noted what happened when you tried to 'adjust' it brought up an obvious question, is all.

The idle (normal) is NOT 2K.
You wrote:it still has no low end power....
THAT, by the way, is a CLASSIC symptom of the KIPS not working.

Re: 'Also, it will idle fine when I first start it and for the first hour of riding, but it slowly gets to the point where it won't idle, even if I screw in the idle screw all the way.'


I call that 'normal'...mostly. As conditions, engine temp, etc change, so does my idle. Still, with the adjustment (the black nylon one) all the way in, it should idle.


Here is the most common scenario: The KIPS is disconnected for top-end maintenance. The 'disconnection' includes one of two things....or both: The governor shaft is not supported during the process (there is a flat on the shat expressly for that purpose), and/or the nut is turned CCW in an attempt to remove it (it's LHT..it is turned CW to remove it).

Forcing the shaft bends or breaks the actuating pin in the centrifigal assy in the crankcase. The broken pin may migrate someplace safe and just sit there for a long time. The KIPS won't work for squat..meaning it's not working at all. The broken piece may move to a place that has gears and stuff..and when it jams it may take out the entire bottom end of the engine, including cases.

Another thing that negatively effects bottom end response...having the reed cage in upside down. Check that, too? Ask if you have a question as to what you're looking at in that situation.

Heck...I'll just look it up.........

It looks like this when correctly installed. Note the tab?

Image

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Post by lemmy »

This bike (bought it in July) has the Boyesen RAD valve. I put it back in the same way it came out, but I am not sure if it is in right. If I remember correctly on the RAD the REED holder and the part that mounts up to the carb is all one piece (unlike the stock one). If that is the case, then it should be in right. But please correct me if I'm wrong about that.
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