Pipe alignment?
- canyncarvr
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Pipe alignment?
How many of you guys are good at making pipes fit?
I spent hours last night trying to realign my pipe...didn't have a whole lot of luck at it. Between the pipe/cylinder, front mount, mid mount and stinger position there was always something not right.
This pipe has had kind of a hard life. It's been to Pacific Crest Pipe Repair twice and I've bent it around a few times myself. Usually only to make a change on one or two axes. When it comes to all three...it seems to be a lot tougher.
Any hints from a happy, successful pipe tweaker?
I spent hours last night trying to realign my pipe...didn't have a whole lot of luck at it. Between the pipe/cylinder, front mount, mid mount and stinger position there was always something not right.
This pipe has had kind of a hard life. It's been to Pacific Crest Pipe Repair twice and I've bent it around a few times myself. Usually only to make a change on one or two axes. When it comes to all three...it seems to be a lot tougher.
Any hints from a happy, successful pipe tweaker?
Last edited by canyncarvr on 12:37 pm Apr 15 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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- bradf
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Here's what I know;
a. the pipe must be in the cylinder as far as it can go. Using the Fredette torque ring makes installation impossible for me.
b. the lower mounting stud is very hard to align if the top mounting bracket bolt is installed first.
c. if the pipe is in the cylinder as far as it can go and the lower mount is on the stud loosely, then I use an assistant (NEVER use the wife as the language always sends her away) and wrestle (pull) the pipe to align the top mounting bracket. I have never successfully installed this pipe alone. It always appears that the pipe's top mounting bracket is 1/4" from reaching far enough. I must have the assistant pull back and slightly up while I try to get the top bolt in.
a. the pipe must be in the cylinder as far as it can go. Using the Fredette torque ring makes installation impossible for me.
b. the lower mounting stud is very hard to align if the top mounting bracket bolt is installed first.
c. if the pipe is in the cylinder as far as it can go and the lower mount is on the stud loosely, then I use an assistant (NEVER use the wife as the language always sends her away) and wrestle (pull) the pipe to align the top mounting bracket. I have never successfully installed this pipe alone. It always appears that the pipe's top mounting bracket is 1/4" from reaching far enough. I must have the assistant pull back and slightly up while I try to get the top bolt in.
'04 220 w/'01 KX250 USD forks, '02 RM125 Showa shock, Rekluse EXP 3.0, LHRB & all RB'd
- canyncarvr
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I've never been keen on doing any reefing on the pipe when it's in the cylinder. I have visions of pieces of previously attached aluminium going 'P-I-N-G' and flying off somewheres.......
The pipe can fit fairly well in 3 of 4 of the attachment spots..and be off on the 4th. The bottom hanger is an example. If the pipe tab has the stud attached first, after installation that hanger's frame mount may be inaccessible.
I've bent the top tab enough (and it's been whanged enough) that one side is cracked.
How close is the top pipe mounting tab to the fuel tank? I've got a bit of a goober on my tank where it's been whanged, too. What a bummer...have the pipe rub a hole in the fuel tank miles from nowheres!
Ever had either mounting tab's rubber isolator split? I've gone through a couple of 'em.
While your assistant is reefing around...isn't the angle of the headpipe changing in the cylinder? The first joint I want to be correct is that one..to have a nice, square (no angle), fully 'in' headpipe.
Thanks!
The pipe can fit fairly well in 3 of 4 of the attachment spots..and be off on the 4th. The bottom hanger is an example. If the pipe tab has the stud attached first, after installation that hanger's frame mount may be inaccessible.
I've bent the top tab enough (and it's been whanged enough) that one side is cracked.
How close is the top pipe mounting tab to the fuel tank? I've got a bit of a goober on my tank where it's been whanged, too. What a bummer...have the pipe rub a hole in the fuel tank miles from nowheres!
Ever had either mounting tab's rubber isolator split? I've gone through a couple of 'em.
While your assistant is reefing around...isn't the angle of the headpipe changing in the cylinder? The first joint I want to be correct is that one..to have a nice, square (no angle), fully 'in' headpipe.
Thanks!
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I blow out most of our own pipe dents but I gave up long ago trying to realign a pipe because of problems you mentioned. You attempt to align the head pipe to cylinder and suddenly that is perfect and the stinger end is off by two inches. Adjust that and the lower mount isn't going to fit. It never fits exactly perfect after it is bent IMO unless you have a pipe repair company realign it in their jig.
PC has (or did have) a tech tip on their site which shows you how to realign the head pipe. I know when I looked at their method I thought to myself been there done that and it did not work. The clamping of a pipe mounting point in a vise and then bending of the head pipe will twist the mounting in my experience. Even more so with the PC 2 and gnarly pipes.
I'm no help to you!
PC has (or did have) a tech tip on their site which shows you how to realign the head pipe. I know when I looked at their method I thought to myself been there done that and it did not work. The clamping of a pipe mounting point in a vise and then bending of the head pipe will twist the mounting in my experience. Even more so with the PC 2 and gnarly pipes.
I'm no help to you!
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- canyncarvr
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We're in the same boat.
Well...I'm in your boat? I don't have a boat.....;)
I've read such clamping ideas (put the mounting tab in a vise and such).
That don't work for diddle.
I always wanted to try a ProCircuit anyway.....
Thanks for the response. Misery is more fun shared!!
Well...I'm in your boat? I don't have a boat.....;)
I've read such clamping ideas (put the mounting tab in a vise and such).
That don't work for diddle.
I always wanted to try a ProCircuit anyway.....
Thanks for the response. Misery is more fun shared!!
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- bradf
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CC, are you still going to use your FMF pipe? To answer some of the questions;
My top mounting bracket's backside is about 3/8' from the tank, no rubbing there.
When my assistant helps they pull straight back and slightly up, the pipe stays pretty well centered in the cylinder.
If I were to use the Fredette torque ring I would have to re-do the top bracket entirely as would be about 1/2" from lining up. I seriously considered making a longer bracket to ease the installation.
My top mounting bracket's backside is about 3/8' from the tank, no rubbing there.
When my assistant helps they pull straight back and slightly up, the pipe stays pretty well centered in the cylinder.
If I were to use the Fredette torque ring I would have to re-do the top bracket entirely as would be about 1/2" from lining up. I seriously considered making a longer bracket to ease the installation.
'04 220 w/'01 KX250 USD forks, '02 RM125 Showa shock, Rekluse EXP 3.0, LHRB & all RB'd
- canyncarvr
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Still going to.
Well, for now.
Gotta ride this weekend (hare scramble 'officiating').
My problem with the top bracket is usually not the distance, but the angle of the tab/frame mount that's the problem. The rubber iso is pretty tweaked to make the angle.
So little time...so many problems!
Well, for now.
Gotta ride this weekend (hare scramble 'officiating').
My problem with the top bracket is usually not the distance, but the angle of the tab/frame mount that's the problem. The rubber iso is pretty tweaked to make the angle.
So little time...so many problems!
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- Indawoods
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How old is your pipe CC? Do you think it would be worth a couple hundy to replace it to avoid those little cracks and leaks that could cause a bigger problem?
Mine is dented right now... good shape otherwise and don't plan to replace it anytime soon. I am just gonna put a guard on it now to avoid any more damage.
If mine was tweaked that bad... I would put it up for later tweaking and just buy a new one (after you check fit (after all...it is a FMF pipe!)). When you get your new one... make a jig for it to align your other one. Save yourself money in the long run I think....
Mine is dented right now... good shape otherwise and don't plan to replace it anytime soon. I am just gonna put a guard on it now to avoid any more damage.
If mine was tweaked that bad... I would put it up for later tweaking and just buy a new one (after you check fit (after all...it is a FMF pipe!)). When you get your new one... make a jig for it to align your other one. Save yourself money in the long run I think....
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"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "
****'95 KDX 200/****
"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "
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I basically had the same problems. My solution: use a Dremel and oversize the mounting holes in the top bracket. 1/8 each was sufficient. No "assistant" required.
This site also helped me a bit: http://www.piperepair.com/tips.htm
This site also helped me a bit: http://www.piperepair.com/tips.htm
KDX220 (RB'd, EFM Autoclutch, FMF Rev, KX front end... Crash proofed and crash tested tOO often !)
- skipro3
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I've taken my woods pipe off half a dozen times or so without even thinking it would be hard to put back on. It just fits. I have the Fredette torque ring and it fits with or without it. No drool anywhere, so it fits like it should. Try fitting it without the o rings on the header and see if that makes any difference. Not to run that way, just to see if they are causing any problems with alignment angles and such.
Sounds like it's time to design something that allows at least one of the mounting points to float. (Or break out the torch and get to work)
Sounds like it's time to design something that allows at least one of the mounting points to float. (Or break out the torch and get to work)
Jerry
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
- Colorado Mike
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My woods pipe used to be a bear to get on, now it's just a PITA. The problem on mine was the dimple that is supposed to provide clearance for the right side KIPS actuation rod cover, well, didn't. So I put the pipe on some cardboard on the garage floor, and beat the dimple a little deeper with a dead-blow mallet. I can't see a dent or any evidence that I wanged on it, but the pipe is easier to put on. I should probably do it a little more. Of course, with my luck the whole pipe would collapse with the next tap.
Mike
Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid.
'04 KDX220
Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid.
'04 KDX220
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My FMF pipe was'nt to bad to fit when it was new, but after a few hard hits, it was rather difficult (put mildly) to get back on the bike after the piston swap. It took loosening both bolts on each clamp to get things somewhat back to where they were before. It's still not exactly positioned right, but it works. I just used some pulling and persuation with alittle cussing to get it on.
Jon.
Jon.
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Johnkdx220 - The Pacific Crest tip is the one I was thinking of. Thanks for the link.
The tip may work with a very thin OEM pipe but IMO will not work with the gnarly or PC2. I've attempted to used heat to move the header neck a couple of times but it is really iffy. You can crease normal pipes very easy with a little heat and the heat is hard to control due to the size of the pipe. Maybe the heavier pipes would respond to heating better.
Some or most of the large repair shops remove all the dents AND will guarantee their alignment on the pipe all for about $40. $40 plus shipping verses $200 for a new pipe!!?? I've only sent 2 pipes out to be fixed and straightened but I was very pleased both times.
However - it is a good idea to have an extra pipe in the garage if you race regularly or cant stand to be without a bike for ten days or so.
The tip may work with a very thin OEM pipe but IMO will not work with the gnarly or PC2. I've attempted to used heat to move the header neck a couple of times but it is really iffy. You can crease normal pipes very easy with a little heat and the heat is hard to control due to the size of the pipe. Maybe the heavier pipes would respond to heating better.
Some or most of the large repair shops remove all the dents AND will guarantee their alignment on the pipe all for about $40. $40 plus shipping verses $200 for a new pipe!!?? I've only sent 2 pipes out to be fixed and straightened but I was very pleased both times.
However - it is a good idea to have an extra pipe in the garage if you race regularly or cant stand to be without a bike for ten days or so.
KTM 380EXC Mine
KDX 200 Mark's
TTR 125 L Wife's
KDX 200 Austin's
EC 300 Tyson's
WR430 Husky - mine
KDX 200 Mark's
TTR 125 L Wife's
KDX 200 Austin's
EC 300 Tyson's
WR430 Husky - mine
- Indawoods
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Yeah but IC it's $50...and it's not as Purdy!
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****'95 KDX 200/****
"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "
****'95 KDX 200/****
"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "
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I see they raised their prices. Yeh $50 plus shipping both ways for me it would up the total cost to about 1/2 a new pipe. (80-90 green backs)
Must be something to the 'purdy' pipes though - I have three good pipes for my 380 all of them in good shape but they have lost that 'pretty feeling'.
Must be something to the 'purdy' pipes though - I have three good pipes for my 380 all of them in good shape but they have lost that 'pretty feeling'.
KTM 380EXC Mine
KDX 200 Mark's
TTR 125 L Wife's
KDX 200 Austin's
EC 300 Tyson's
WR430 Husky - mine
KDX 200 Mark's
TTR 125 L Wife's
KDX 200 Austin's
EC 300 Tyson's
WR430 Husky - mine
- skipro3
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O.K. Time to drag this up again. I took my pipe off the remove the FRP torque ring. I looked close at the head to cylinder fit first and looking on the left side, (shifter side) I could see part of the second o-ring. Meaning the pipe wasn't into the cylinder square or deep enough. Took it off, cleaned everything up and inspected. There was a rim of aluminum where the pipe gouged the cylinder. I ground that down smooth and ground the edge of the pipe where it enters the cylinder so the pipe won't have a sharp edge to gouge anymore. With the torque ring removed, the pipe won't go in any deeper than it was with the ring. The o-ring is still exposed just a bit on the left side, no change. I don't care how the other points line up, I can't get the pipe to fit in there and bottom out for anything. I wacked on it for a couple of hours with a rubber mallot to no good. I could make it worse, but never better. So, I put it all back together and I guess it will have to stay that way. If a PC pipe fits better, I'm going to buy one and get rid of this one. I can't stand the thought of the pipe not fitting the cylinder correctly.
Jerry
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
- canyncarvr
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I never measured one or the other, but I recall the pipe fits almost to the first weld..the one attaching the header 'ring' to the diverging cone pieces.
How many exhaust gaskets you got stuffed in there?
If you can see an o-ring on one side and not the other, it's certainly crooked.
Sounds like you need a couple of long enforcers (floor jack handles will work...so will those big metal bars truckers use to tighen their load straps) to 'realign' things.
Have fun!!
How many exhaust gaskets you got stuffed in there?
If you can see an o-ring on one side and not the other, it's certainly crooked.
Sounds like you need a couple of long enforcers (floor jack handles will work...so will those big metal bars truckers use to tighen their load straps) to 'realign' things.
Have fun!!
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- skipro3
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There's two o-rings on the pipe. After a few crashes yesterday, the second o-ring is now just barely full into the cylinder. Still a bit crooked though.
I would like to try out a desert -30 pipe and a PC pipe sometime. Anyone with a 220 running those pipes care to regale their experiance with the setup?
I would like to try out a desert -30 pipe and a PC pipe sometime. Anyone with a 220 running those pipes care to regale their experiance with the setup?
Jerry
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
- bradf
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only problem i have with the PC pipe is the middle bracket by the tank---just doesn't reach---so i don't use it. besides, that mount makes it alot more difficult to inst/rem the pipe. fit is excellent at the cylinder and stinger. no problems so far.
Carver---as for the mounts breaking??? i had 2 broken ones that came with the used bike. just roughed 'em up w/some sandpaper and JB welded them. i believe they are now stronger than new---worked like a charm... or....you could buy new ones for around $15 apiece. i'm too cheap for that! BTW, i like to use those lock nuts w/the vinyl? inside to secure things. never had one back out or even loosen.
Carver---as for the mounts breaking??? i had 2 broken ones that came with the used bike. just roughed 'em up w/some sandpaper and JB welded them. i believe they are now stronger than new---worked like a charm... or....you could buy new ones for around $15 apiece. i'm too cheap for that! BTW, i like to use those lock nuts w/the vinyl? inside to secure things. never had one back out or even loosen.