Delta Force III - INSTALLED AND RUNNING!!
- Jeb
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Delta Force III - INSTALLED AND RUNNING!!
And naturally I'm anticipating an improvement or I wouldn't have ordered it, but I'm just wondering what those who got it think of 'em. While I'm not betting it's as good as, say, the RB mods, I would think it will further the effect that other mods have made.
Based on the way the unit looks and the description on the website, there will be additional airflow.
Any tuning tips?
Based on the way the unit looks and the description on the website, there will be additional airflow.
Any tuning tips?
Last edited by Jeb on 06:48 pm Jun 24 2008, edited 1 time in total.
- skipro3
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As with any other mod, verify your jetting is still on the money after you do it. Also, inspect the old reeds. Offer up anything replaced on e-bay and I bet you will offset the cost for the V-Force by 50%. Yes, people are that gullible.
Expect improvements with ease in starting as well as down low grunt. Higher RPM's and feathering the gas, like when you're cruising down a fire road at a relaxed pace, and you might hear the reeds flutter. It's an odd sound, like a bongo drum or something. Least ways, that's what I heard on my 220 w/that set-up.
Expect improvements with ease in starting as well as down low grunt. Higher RPM's and feathering the gas, like when you're cruising down a fire road at a relaxed pace, and you might hear the reeds flutter. It's an odd sound, like a bongo drum or something. Least ways, that's what I heard on my 220 w/that set-up.
Jerry
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
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I had the following mods in this order:
1- Woods pipe
2- V-Force 3
3- Change Woods for Rev
4- Rb Designs carb and head
So, I rode with the VF3 with Woods, after with Rev and after with RB and the result is always the same:
1- Improve throttle response (quick)
3- Better acceleration
3- Better mid to top
Nothing to change for the jetting for mee with the VF3.
1- Woods pipe
2- V-Force 3
3- Change Woods for Rev
4- Rb Designs carb and head
So, I rode with the VF3 with Woods, after with Rev and after with RB and the result is always the same:
1- Improve throttle response (quick)
3- Better acceleration
3- Better mid to top
Nothing to change for the jetting for mee with the VF3.
- Jeb
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Got the "box" today - already had things ready to bolt it right in and try it.
On about a 15 minute ride in tame territory (back yard + service road) I'm quite confident in claiming that this is a quite a change. Just like Ski suggested, there's more bottom but that doesn't quite describe what I'm experiencing. It's got this ever-present snap. First gear is plain freakin' snotty; second is the same . . . just faster!! In second gear I can be rolling slowly and twitch the throttle a little - like half an inch rotation - and SNAP, it's building revs. Another twitch and more snap!
And third gear - I'm use to a slower buildup of power when I roll the throttle from a near standstill; since Ron's mods it's been a solid buildup and now it's even more stout.
Fellas, I don't know how much my current mods play into how noticeable the difference is between the 607s and the Delta Force IIIs (I suspect they do play some part) but it is indeed noticeable.
I'm thrilled and can't wait to climb some hills. If it don't rain I'm going somewhere tomorrow. I cannot wait.
On about a 15 minute ride in tame territory (back yard + service road) I'm quite confident in claiming that this is a quite a change. Just like Ski suggested, there's more bottom but that doesn't quite describe what I'm experiencing. It's got this ever-present snap. First gear is plain freakin' snotty; second is the same . . . just faster!! In second gear I can be rolling slowly and twitch the throttle a little - like half an inch rotation - and SNAP, it's building revs. Another twitch and more snap!
And third gear - I'm use to a slower buildup of power when I roll the throttle from a near standstill; since Ron's mods it's been a solid buildup and now it's even more stout.
Fellas, I don't know how much my current mods play into how noticeable the difference is between the 607s and the Delta Force IIIs (I suspect they do play some part) but it is indeed noticeable.
I'm thrilled and can't wait to climb some hills. If it don't rain I'm going somewhere tomorrow. I cannot wait.
- canyncarvr
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This is surely big news (read: Ho-hum....ZZZzzzZZZzzz), but I've been a DF3 fan for a few years..because they work!
I've heard a lot of fussing about the expense of 'em..and how 607s are great too, and much cheaper.
The DF3 is simply superior.
Note it's a 'tool-less' design. No screws and things like the DF2 had holding it together. The DF3 DOES use a 'special tool' to disassemble the cage for reed replacement. The DF3 reeds do perform well longevity-wise, too! Boyesens carbon reeds didn't last a year for me before they started coming apart. I've ridden for two years on DF3 reeds..and they didn't look any different from when I put them in.
I say look in bold...'cuz I realize that what they LOOK like doesn't mean a lot. They (reeds) can look good and still be worn. Still...my engine didn't have to eat any bits of carbon like it did with the Boyesen pieces of crap.
Something to keep in mind: New reeds will likely show an improvement over older(er) reeds. The reeds you took OUT weren't 'new'.
How many folks replace their reeds on an annual basis? Not many, I'd bet. Part of that is, 'Why? They LOOK good!!'
Ski....I thought you had a DF2..not a 3. Not the same reed.
I've heard a lot of fussing about the expense of 'em..and how 607s are great too, and much cheaper.
The DF3 is simply superior.
Note it's a 'tool-less' design. No screws and things like the DF2 had holding it together. The DF3 DOES use a 'special tool' to disassemble the cage for reed replacement. The DF3 reeds do perform well longevity-wise, too! Boyesens carbon reeds didn't last a year for me before they started coming apart. I've ridden for two years on DF3 reeds..and they didn't look any different from when I put them in.
I say look in bold...'cuz I realize that what they LOOK like doesn't mean a lot. They (reeds) can look good and still be worn. Still...my engine didn't have to eat any bits of carbon like it did with the Boyesen pieces of crap.
Something to keep in mind: New reeds will likely show an improvement over older(er) reeds. The reeds you took OUT weren't 'new'.
How many folks replace their reeds on an annual basis? Not many, I'd bet. Part of that is, 'Why? They LOOK good!!'
Ski....I thought you had a DF2..not a 3. Not the same reed.
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- Mr. Wibbens
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DF3? DF2?????????
This aint no freakin Delta Force!
Its VF3 or VF2!!!!!!!
VForce!!!!!!!!
This aint no freakin Delta Force!
Its VF3 or VF2!!!!!!!
VForce!!!!!!!!
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- skipro3
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- canyncarvr
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Somebody's panties are in a bunch...........
No 'delta'....
I wonder what these are? Must be sumthin' new...
From the web:
Delta VForce 3
Code:DELTA-VFORCE3
Price: $144.95
Besides...Jeb started this with 'Delta Force'... and I understood what he was talking about..
So there!
Ski: You hear the 3's flutter on the KX?
(Can I say that? 'The 3's'? Will I be abashed and chagrined to be keelhauled on that one? )
No 'delta'....
I wonder what these are? Must be sumthin' new...
From the web:
Delta VForce 3
Code:DELTA-VFORCE3
Price: $144.95
Besides...Jeb started this with 'Delta Force'... and I understood what he was talking about..
So there!
Ski: You hear the 3's flutter on the KX?
(Can I say that? 'The 3's'? Will I be abashed and chagrined to be keelhauled on that one? )
Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis
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- skipro3
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Not like I could with the 2's on the KDX, but I hear them. It's now obvious why my 2 reeds were chipped on the corners after hearing that flutter. It's gotta be hammering them pretty good. Mostly heard it when I was lugging the motor and turning up the throttle. I could back off the throttle and it would go away, apply the throttle and it would come back. It was in a specific throttle position and engine rpm under a load like a small or slight rise.
Jerry
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
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- Jeb
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I took the chance to ride it for about an hour yesterday early evening . . .
A bit of background: I've been trying to get what extra upper rev power I could which has worked out well with a race-gas modded head, earlier KIPs opening, and retarded timing. While the lower rev power didn't suffer and was strong, overall it didn't grow as much (which was expected). The KIPs opening was rather obvious, nice midrange hit .
Enter the DF3 . . .
. . . rode it on a paved service road just to play around with what the throttle will really do. Geez, it wasn't like I sorely-needed more low end but I sure as heck got it! She pulls stronger than ever right off the bottom. I've been able to get the front wheel off the ground fairly easily with the latest mods, but now it wants to come up with more than about 1/2 throttle unless you roll it slowly! I seemed to have lost the midrange hit I had with the newly-pronounced lower RPM power, so I dropped the needle clip to the fifth and final slot and got some of it back (no I don't need the hit but I don't care, I like it!). I know that the upper end of things has been aided as well: while in third gear, I can open her up and get her wound out, back off the throttle for about a second, and fully open the throttle again and get the front wheel off the ground!! I'm actually not that much of a fan of doing stuff like that, but it's pretty inspirational. On one particular straight but short run I found myself switching into 6th gear.
Bottom line: it feels like I have changed into shorter gearing!!
. . . rode through the creek behind the house. Where the creek's down lots of big rocks are exposed and loose. As you navigate you need to get a little momentum as you climb the opposing bank because, although it's only about 2 feet up, it's steep and rocky/gnarly (NOT a smooth ascent) so it's easy to stall. Having nursed myself with the help of my feet and lots of clutch through the first half of the creek, I opened the throttle for the momentum . . . WHOA!! I got to the bank faster than I'm used to and climbed right up the bank, and as I crested the lip the front wheel lifted and it took me 1/2 second to recompose myself and set her back down. SHEESH, 'reminded me of the grunt of a KTM 300 I briefly rode last summer.
. . . rode around a little field behind the tree line. Just a small area but I was rippin' through gears quickly.
. . . and rode several times up and down a hill whose incline gradually increases and is a pretty good test. It's only a trace of a trail through some tall weeds and the bare line through has become knotty from drainage of recent rains. In 2nd I can stop half way up the hill, start going up again and make it over the crest. When I come up the hill in third there's enough momentum to carry me over some of the roughness of the hill and the rear tire wants to spin as I ascend . . . WAHHH UUMMM WAHHH UUMMM . . . and the front wheel wants to be airborn.
I'm a BIG fan of the DF3
As far as Delta vs Force . . . they oughta' call it the GF3 - grunt force!!
A bit of background: I've been trying to get what extra upper rev power I could which has worked out well with a race-gas modded head, earlier KIPs opening, and retarded timing. While the lower rev power didn't suffer and was strong, overall it didn't grow as much (which was expected). The KIPs opening was rather obvious, nice midrange hit .
Enter the DF3 . . .
. . . rode it on a paved service road just to play around with what the throttle will really do. Geez, it wasn't like I sorely-needed more low end but I sure as heck got it! She pulls stronger than ever right off the bottom. I've been able to get the front wheel off the ground fairly easily with the latest mods, but now it wants to come up with more than about 1/2 throttle unless you roll it slowly! I seemed to have lost the midrange hit I had with the newly-pronounced lower RPM power, so I dropped the needle clip to the fifth and final slot and got some of it back (no I don't need the hit but I don't care, I like it!). I know that the upper end of things has been aided as well: while in third gear, I can open her up and get her wound out, back off the throttle for about a second, and fully open the throttle again and get the front wheel off the ground!! I'm actually not that much of a fan of doing stuff like that, but it's pretty inspirational. On one particular straight but short run I found myself switching into 6th gear.
Bottom line: it feels like I have changed into shorter gearing!!
. . . rode through the creek behind the house. Where the creek's down lots of big rocks are exposed and loose. As you navigate you need to get a little momentum as you climb the opposing bank because, although it's only about 2 feet up, it's steep and rocky/gnarly (NOT a smooth ascent) so it's easy to stall. Having nursed myself with the help of my feet and lots of clutch through the first half of the creek, I opened the throttle for the momentum . . . WHOA!! I got to the bank faster than I'm used to and climbed right up the bank, and as I crested the lip the front wheel lifted and it took me 1/2 second to recompose myself and set her back down. SHEESH, 'reminded me of the grunt of a KTM 300 I briefly rode last summer.
. . . rode around a little field behind the tree line. Just a small area but I was rippin' through gears quickly.
. . . and rode several times up and down a hill whose incline gradually increases and is a pretty good test. It's only a trace of a trail through some tall weeds and the bare line through has become knotty from drainage of recent rains. In 2nd I can stop half way up the hill, start going up again and make it over the crest. When I come up the hill in third there's enough momentum to carry me over some of the roughness of the hill and the rear tire wants to spin as I ascend . . . WAHHH UUMMM WAHHH UUMMM . . . and the front wheel wants to be airborn.
I'm a BIG fan of the DF3
As far as Delta vs Force . . . they oughta' call it the GF3 - grunt force!!
- canyncarvr
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I don't remember...but if you're running a 12CSS, you might try the 13 again.
If you have the power to pull the 13, you will find yourself riding considerably faster with less effort. No. Riding faster doesn't have to be a goal particularly. I leave that to those that think they are amazingly great riders and choose to benefit me by showing me all about it.
Still...faster generally ends up meaning smoother..and THAT translates into more FUN.
Now THAT I can handle!!
Glad you finally bit the bullet and UPgraded your reed system. Just think of all the fun you've missed out on! Don't let it happen again!!
The MotoTassinari II (with low tension reed stops AND low tension reeds) was fun, too.
God bless the riders that spent all the time it obviously took to get the MT reeds sorted out for the KDX.
I wonder who that was.......
Yes. I did have to bring that up, as a matter of fact.
If you have the power to pull the 13, you will find yourself riding considerably faster with less effort. No. Riding faster doesn't have to be a goal particularly. I leave that to those that think they are amazingly great riders and choose to benefit me by showing me all about it.
Still...faster generally ends up meaning smoother..and THAT translates into more FUN.
Now THAT I can handle!!
Glad you finally bit the bullet and UPgraded your reed system. Just think of all the fun you've missed out on! Don't let it happen again!!
The MotoTassinari II (with low tension reed stops AND low tension reeds) was fun, too.
God bless the riders that spent all the time it obviously took to get the MT reeds sorted out for the KDX.
I wonder who that was.......
Yes. I did have to bring that up, as a matter of fact.
Consider the source
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Non impediti ratione cogitationis
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- Jeb
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I'm running a 12/45 - a matter of convenience in quality sprocket availability, namely Rentals for cheap! It's pretty darn close to a 13/49. But I think you're right about the consideration for taller gearing. Quicker and less shifting. And first would become useable I moved away from 12/47 after the race-gas head - if I still had that config it's hard to tell what sort of zippiness I'd be encountering!
- Rick
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- Mr. Wibbens
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canyncarvr wrote:Somebody's panties are in a bunch...........
No 'delta'....
I wonder what these are? Must be sumthin' new...
From the web:
Delta VForce 3
Code:DELTA-VFORCE3
Price: $144.95
Besides...Jeb started this with 'Delta Force'... and I understood what he was talking about..
So there!
Ski: You hear the 3's flutter on the KX?
(Can I say that? 'The 3's'? Will I be abashed and chagrined to be keelhauled on that one? )
Not surprising when ONE HICK says something F'd up wrong and another backwoods HICK understands him
You mighta got it off the web but NOT from http://www.mototassinari.com
Warning! This member tends to use sarcasm as a regular form of communication. If a post seems offensive, before you panic and fly off the handle, re-read the post and imagine it being said with a sideways grin.
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- Jeb
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Got a few good rides on the new reeds, rides with frequent and fairly-steep hillclimbs.
Very nice power delivery throughout, but like I mentioned before what's most noticeable is how power has improved on the low end.
Rick and I went riding at a new place yesterday that's got some pretty good hills (and several of them) and the bike did not fail me when my performance was up to snuff. If you can imagine a slippery, steep descent down into a drainage creek then an abrumpt ascent on the other side - that's what we were dealing with. The clay was that tacky/slippery stuff which provided little traction. We would hit the creek with enough momentum to give us an edge on the uphill but we relied heavily on the bike's power to get us through. The steepest portions were right at the bottom. As I would start the ascent in first I noticed that the RPMs rarely waivered - a SOLID, SOLID pull (maybe just a wee bit of clutch if I had poor momentum on the steepest parts), a noticeable performance difference. Powerful but controllable. Still ascending, I found the bike begging to be shifted into 2nd pretty quickly (it took a while to get the gumption start doing it but once I did I was quite impressed). And then even third as the grade started to lessen - but not before the bike would wind 2nd out with the front wheel getting a little airtime off the roots and rocks! WOW! I thought what I had before the Vforce setup was pretty good but this is another level of performance.
On our final run Rick took the lead and we ran the whole loop pretty hard and fast. Got stuck on one of the gnarliest hills that had some washed out ruts with big roots but that was my poor choice of lines (I was getting cocky with what the bike could do). Most of the trail between all of the big hills had lots of rocks and roots with what amounts to big whoops, very tight, twisty trail with ruts - I found myself in 3rd gear a considerable amount of the time, in fourth a few times but that's TOO fast for me in that terrain . . .
on those tight switchback-type uphill turns out of habit I would automatically drop it into 2nd but I found myself switching back into third enough that I believe I can just KEEP it there! Basically, bolting on these reeds means my riding style can actually change a little if I prefer to shift less.
Fantastic mod!
Oh, BTW I increased my main one size (150) out of curiosity and to see if I get a little more of that hit back, and that's just what happened. Still reasonably mild but I likes even if I'm a tad rich.
Very nice power delivery throughout, but like I mentioned before what's most noticeable is how power has improved on the low end.
Rick and I went riding at a new place yesterday that's got some pretty good hills (and several of them) and the bike did not fail me when my performance was up to snuff. If you can imagine a slippery, steep descent down into a drainage creek then an abrumpt ascent on the other side - that's what we were dealing with. The clay was that tacky/slippery stuff which provided little traction. We would hit the creek with enough momentum to give us an edge on the uphill but we relied heavily on the bike's power to get us through. The steepest portions were right at the bottom. As I would start the ascent in first I noticed that the RPMs rarely waivered - a SOLID, SOLID pull (maybe just a wee bit of clutch if I had poor momentum on the steepest parts), a noticeable performance difference. Powerful but controllable. Still ascending, I found the bike begging to be shifted into 2nd pretty quickly (it took a while to get the gumption start doing it but once I did I was quite impressed). And then even third as the grade started to lessen - but not before the bike would wind 2nd out with the front wheel getting a little airtime off the roots and rocks! WOW! I thought what I had before the Vforce setup was pretty good but this is another level of performance.
On our final run Rick took the lead and we ran the whole loop pretty hard and fast. Got stuck on one of the gnarliest hills that had some washed out ruts with big roots but that was my poor choice of lines (I was getting cocky with what the bike could do). Most of the trail between all of the big hills had lots of rocks and roots with what amounts to big whoops, very tight, twisty trail with ruts - I found myself in 3rd gear a considerable amount of the time, in fourth a few times but that's TOO fast for me in that terrain . . .
on those tight switchback-type uphill turns out of habit I would automatically drop it into 2nd but I found myself switching back into third enough that I believe I can just KEEP it there! Basically, bolting on these reeds means my riding style can actually change a little if I prefer to shift less.
Fantastic mod!
Oh, BTW I increased my main one size (150) out of curiosity and to see if I get a little more of that hit back, and that's just what happened. Still reasonably mild but I likes even if I'm a tad rich.
- wanaride
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Good for you!
After all of the hype, I finally ordered a VF3 and bolted it onto my KDX200 last week and have two short rides using it. I am not impressed thus far. I certainly have not had $142 worth of grins added to my riding because of it.
50:1, M=152, P=42, needle stock in mid clip position. I guess my jetting still isn't good enough.
After all of the hype, I finally ordered a VF3 and bolted it onto my KDX200 last week and have two short rides using it. I am not impressed thus far. I certainly have not had $142 worth of grins added to my riding because of it.
50:1, M=152, P=42, needle stock in mid clip position. I guess my jetting still isn't good enough.
I love someone with autism!
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- canyncarvr
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re: 'to see if I get a little more of that hit back...'
As 'things' change, OTHER things can change (maybe again, maybe for the first time, maybe just some more), too.
Now that the delivery on the bottom of the range is improved you might try losing a bit of it on purpose by retarding your timing. You may end up with a low-end that works just fine AND get the 'hit' you're looking for.
Wanna: You gotta get rid of that oem needle...........
It's all a matter of preference, how much time you want to spend tweaking, how much you enjoy the bike running better, better, and then more better.
Glad you like 'em, Jeb!
As 'things' change, OTHER things can change (maybe again, maybe for the first time, maybe just some more), too.
Now that the delivery on the bottom of the range is improved you might try losing a bit of it on purpose by retarding your timing. You may end up with a low-end that works just fine AND get the 'hit' you're looking for.
Wanna: You gotta get rid of that oem needle...........
It's all a matter of preference, how much time you want to spend tweaking, how much you enjoy the bike running better, better, and then more better.
I stopped keeping track of the number of times I've said that quite awhile back!I thought what I had before.... was pretty good but this is another level of performance.
Glad you like 'em, Jeb!
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- Jeb
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I wish I could but I've already "used up" the "retarded" range after I bolted on the race gas head . . . presumably further retardation is not an option. Who knows what I might try next. Mild porting for more top end? A different brand pipe perhaps - Bill's Pipe is one option and I remember seeing one other manufacturer that actually offers two versions of pipes.canyncarvr wrote:re: 'to see if I get a little more of that hit back...'
As 'things' change, OTHER things can change (maybe again, maybe for the first time, maybe just some more), too.
Now that the delivery on the bottom of the range is improved you might try losing a bit of it on purpose by retarding your timing. You may end up with a low-end that works just fine AND get the 'hit' you're looking for . . .
I've long forgotten what a stock 220 is like for sure!canyncarvr wrote:I stopped keeping track of the number of times I've said that quite awhile back!I thought what I had before.... was pretty good but this is another level of performance.
Glad you like 'em, Jeb!