KDXRIDER.NET

Hmmmm... a guy named Ron delivers my paper. He doesn't know anything about oil tho...

Another write in vote for Rotella 30w. I run it in my KDX, Raptor 660, Warrior 350, Honda 250ex, and XR80. Shane Watts recommended it and it has worked great for me so far!

My logic is -If can keep a diesel lubed with the rotating mass and compression that they have, it should work great in a bike.

I was moseying around for info on specs, costs for different transmission fluids and ran into this by chance . . . CLICK HERE

I'm curious - the 1984 Honda V65 Sabre used in the "test" has a wet-clutch yet there are no inferences about clutch performance or lack thereof . . . yet full synthetics are used. So do synthetics perform OK for wet clutch applications in general or are there differences between the clutch in the Sabre and the clutch used in a KDX (in terms of suitability of a synthetic oil)?

An inquiring mind wants to know!

When browsing for the oil link I linked in an earlier link (on this thread) I came across an Amsoil thread berating those who said synthetics are 'bad' for wet clutches because syns are too 'slippery'. Basically, that idea is hogwash. A myth misconstrued by those that don't know better..that think 'slippery' is some kind of synthetic wonder derivative only recently known to man.

That an oil is synthetic in construct has nothing to do with whether it is suitable for wet clutch application. Can't say 'in general'..because specifics apply. Amsoil's product for motorcycle use is one thing..Castrol Syntec is quite another.

About synthetics comparatively speaking (note who's making the comparison): Here!

Re: Rotella

What is the API rating of the oil being used?

That it works well in diesel engines relates to motorcyles...how exactly? Because a 'thing' is excellent in some regard in a manner completely unrelated to the subject at hand means nothing at all is what I'm sayin'.

'If 'SE' is good....'SG' is obviously better!'

That's the same logic. Which is to say...it's completely without any logic whatsoever.

It's completely ILLogical is what I'm sayin'.

Now...it may make one happy..but that doesn't have anything to do with making SENSE.

I'm not attacking Rotella users...so please, no one get their panties in a bunch about it. It's simply fact: An oil recommended for and excellent for use in an engine having NOTHING in common with your motorcycle does NOT make it wonderful terrific and super-d-dooper FOR your motorcycle.

canyncarvr wrote: . . . That an oil is synthetic in construct has nothing to do with whether it is suitable for wet clutch application . . .

That's what I was wond'rin . . . somehow along the way I picked that up (that being the synth was bad for wet clutches) and it stuck.

I went looking for it...the 'too slippery' part. This is where it came from.

#9

'It stuck'. Very funny. I thought it was too slippery?

You don't see where a diesel motor oil would be an advantage in a wet clutch motorcycle engine??

Surely an oil that can hold up to the loads of a 40 ton tractor-trailer rig won't break down in my puny 250cc tranny.

An oil designed to hold particles in suspension applied to a wet clutch motor.... also, a highly desirable characteristic.

If you want to bash diesel motor oils, that's good, but what about ATF? That was on your poll but not Diesel oils? Hmmmmmm

Besides, I thought you wanted a poll, not an explanation. Just because YOU don't see the application being sensible doesn't mean it's not used. Was I supposed to get your permission before I choose what goes in my motor?

I'm having fun with you, so don't get pouty with me!!!

I'm not pouty...and I'm sure you understand you completely missed the point on purpose.

I didn't bash anything. If you use it and you like it, I'm happy for you!

BUT, to say, 'This is good in diesel engines, therefore it is good in this (completely different and not in any way the same) transmission!!' ??

Another but...but...having the numbers (as you surely do) on the shear forces between that 40 ton rig (with gears the size of turkey serving platters) and your puny..that's right, YOU said it, PUNY 250cc tranny (with gears not quite the same size), I know the decision to run diesel oil in a motorcycle is a well-reasoned one.

Oh...wait!! The above linkage (40-ton diesel engines and 2-stroke transmission gears) are dissimilar?

No kidding.

Is Rotella 30W used in that 40-ton rig's transmission? In its differential?

Bet'cha not.


Again, and for the third time, even....anyone that uses Rotella (or ATF...or synthetic....or any made-up concoction you want to come up with) and is happy with it isn't going to hear any argument from me. I have far better things to do (even if it is absolutely nothing) than argue that point.

What has nothing to DO with SOMEone's choice of oil (obviously) is the logic involved in making the choice...THAT I will scoff at.

AND....I didn't want any such poll. I put one up to merely make sense of another thread that referenced a poll that didn't HAVE one. ...but you knew that when you READ the two threads.

You DID read them, right?

Now then....go out into your garage, finish the install of that exhaust brake on your PUNY 250..and eat your corn. That IS what you're doing, right? I mean...it's good on a 40 ton rig..it's GOTTA be good on your puny motorcycle!!

I know I know!!!!

A diesel fan wrote:This 14" ring gear in my diesel truck sure works good pullin' my 25,000# toyhauler, so I'm SURE it'll be GREAT on the barbie! Pass the A-1!!!

..same logic...

More good reading. From a Shell Oil engineer, even (timestamp-02-04-2004, 01:48 PM).

Yep...he does say, 'ROTELLA T oils can be a good choice for motorcycle engines.' which will likely blind you to everything else he says about grade specs, what to use where and the like.

For those unlikely to look up ANYthing...how 'bout this (from the above link):

Shell lube engineer wrote:Again, it's best to consult your owner's manual for recommended oil quality. If your engine manufacturer recommends oil meeting any of these API Service Categories; CF-4, CG-4, CH-4, CI-4, and/or SH, SJ, and SL, or any earlier but obsolete category, then ROTELLA T may be a good choice.
ROTELLA T does not contain friction modifiers that are added to many passenger-car-only-oils, and it does not comply with all requirements of ILSAC GF-1, GF-2 and GF-3 (the ILSAC oil specifications are often recommended by many gasoline passenger car engine manufacturers). That can be good for motorcycle use. Friction modifiers can upset wet clutch operation. And the ILSAC requirements limit phosphorus content. Diesel engines and other engines with highly loaded valve trains, as well as transmissions, need extra (compared to passenger car engines) extreme pressure wear protection, which is provided by an additive that contains phosphorus.

Do I need to hilight the important parts..the parts that pertain to your otherwise baseless conclusions?


See how reasonable I am? What I read is pontifications on the greatness of an oil the use of which is intended for a mutually exclusive application (nothing in common with your motorcycle)...just pontifications based on nothing but conjecture. I take exception to the erstwhile non-thought of it all.

And I find the logic and reason (Shell Oil Guy) to back it up.

You're welcome.

Whew . . . I finished that last posting - the WHOLE thing - in only one setting, only had to stop to use the bathroom one time!!

I 'spose the diesel-runners could get someone to read it TO them....

Did'ja learn anything?

I found myself needing 2 poo trips to get through that post!! Whew! And I thought mine didn't stink!!

ATF is the worst stuff to use in the tranny/clutch of a KDX. When I used it and drained the mess out, there was enough glitter to make one of those snow globe things!!! It scared me how much metal was flushed out with the oil when I used ATF. So, my experiance, my choice you say? Well thank you!! I will exercise that privilage you bestow!!

Had corn-on-the-cobb with my rib-eye steak yesterday too.

BTW, I'm listing a travel mug over on the For-Sale forum. Works great. How I ended up with it, I can't recall. Someone either was dumb enough to leave it in my truck or loan it to me. If'n it's yours speak up and post your address and I'll send it back!! Ha!!! HAw!!! sNort!!

Also, my internet connection is FOR CRAP!! It works maybe 2 hours a day and never the same two hours. Comcast is the worst for service!!

Enough with the sweet talk. Rained this Memorial Day weekend and this coming weekend will be epic riding conditions. When are you going to come down and visit me? Diesel is $5.35 a gallon here and unless I can steal it, or ride share, it might be a little while before I'm up again....

Let's see.... 380 miles each way plus 50 miles or so local driving is 810 miles at 18 mpg. That's 45 gallons of diesel. At $5.35 a gallon, it'll cost me $240.75 to ride Oregone in fuel alone!!! Maybe I'll just thumb a ride....

First ya whine about old age and your back and now your complainin cuz you bought a HUGE friggin diesel guzzlin Dodge?

Think price of diesel's gonna get better??

Better come NOW, while it's still half ass AFFORDABLE!

Hey Skipro, why don't you try running some of that $5-$9 a quart Yamalube, in the diesel you might get 19 MPG.

Hey CC, I went and got me some of them readin classes today and found me info bout that API stuff in this here API guide.

http://www.api.org/certifications/engin ... de2006.pdf

It states "CF-2 - Introduced in 1994. For severe duty, two-stroke-cycle engines. Can be used in place of CD-II oils." and guess what Rotella 30w is rated at CF-2

No offense, but I've worked in engineering for almost 20 years and us hillbillies have a sayin around the office " Arguing with an engineer is like trying to teach a pig to dance, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig." Please feel free to rant some more, as for me and my toys, we are happy with the $10 a GALLON Rotella!

>QBB<

Wikipedia wrote:Though marketed as an engine oil for diesel trucks, Rotella oil has found popularity with motorcyclists as well. The properties of heavy duty engine oils tend to map to the same requirements of motorcycle oils, particularly those whose engine and transmission share the same oil. (This is called a "shared sump" design, which is unlike automobiles which maintain separate oil reservoirs - one for the engine and one for the transmission). The chemical additives found in heavy duty engine oils work well with motorcycles. In addition, the lack of "friction modifiers" in truck oils such as Rotella means they do not interfere with proper wet clutch operations.

Though not yet officially announced by Shell, posts in various motorcycle-related forums cite e-mail confirmation from Shell that Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 has been tested and shown to meet the JASO-MA friction test. This particular certification is important for motorcycles because of the clutch design which is bathed in the engine oil. This is known as a "wet clutch." Oils that have excessive "friction modifiers" tend to make wet clutches slip. Indication that Rotella T Triple Protection passes the JASO-MA friction test offers one more reason to seriously consider Rotella T for motorcycle use.

Motorcycle specific oils tend to cost between $8 and $10 per quart. Shell Rotella T 15W-40 costs about $10 per gallon (or about $2.50/quart). The price economy of Shell Rotella T allows a motorcycle owner to change oil more frequently, thus matching the "extended change interval" value of motorcycle specific synthetics.

Mobil 1 5W-30 synthetic

I've been using whatever was on the shelf, which usually is Maxima MTL 75wt with Two2Cool added because that is what we use on our little KTM50's with a centrifugal clutch. It makes a big difference on the little auto 50's in terms of keeping them cool, but I couldn't tell a difference on my 200. That is overkill in a 200, so I will switch to something else.

I have used Mobil 1 also. I bought a gallon of Rotella T dino this morning and I will give that a try. I usually change my oil every other ride (about every 10-15 hours).

I use Castrol 20W-50, plain old motor oil. No problems to date.
I don't change it very often either, every 30 rides or two months or so.

Ron said that would be fine.....

Words mean things...unfortunately (and statistically), most that use them have NO clue what they DO mean.

Given: A definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.

So...here we go!

For about the 14th time...I wasn't arguing with the use of Rotella T 30W or anything else...neither for or against. I didn't say it was bad, that it was awful, or anything of the sort. Posting a DEFENSE of the use of the oil, posited against what I said makes my point perfectly! If you cannot SEE that, you need a few more years in ESL classes. If your position is so weak as to feel the need to make a defense of it nesessary against NOTHING SAID ABOUT IT, I'd suggest a change of position. At least to the extent that an educated decision can be made.

Or not, for that matter. Sometimes choices are made completely absent from and devoid of knowledge. 'A' is simply chosen over 'B'. That's fine! But DON'T argue in such a case of the erudite nature of your conclusion!!!

Because an oil (in this case) is deemed excellent and perfectly suited for a diesel application in and of itself means NOTHING when considering it for use in a motorcycle transmission. It may in fact BE perfectly suited for both...but the ARGUMENT that one means the other is ridiculous.

Frankly...it makes one look stoopid...enginnner, injuneer, engyner, ditch-digger, farm-hand, or otherwise, it matters not a whit.

At ANYtime I foist such a baseless arguement off on the general reading public, I would hope that someone would call me on it immediately!!

Criminy...after repeatedly asking for support of the use of it (other than he-said she-said)..and not getting it..I went and substantiated it myself. And yet...I still get grief over pointing out the complete audacity of the baseless thinking that started the whole thing.


Re: 'and guess what Rotella (sic) 30w is rated at CF-2'

Peter Van Benthuysen (Shell Engineer) wrote:ROTELLA T Single Grade SAE 30 is API Service Category CF-4/SJ.

Of course...what's the difference between the -2 and -4 anyway? No big deal. It doesn't mean anything....

I would be interested in ANY documentation referencing the former (Rotella (sic) 30W being CF-2). I'd bet $10 there is no such thing...meaning no such correct documentation.

No panties in any bunch here, btw. I enjoy a good verbal joust, but don't be pulling any semantic horsepucky and expect to NOT get called on it.

"Shell that Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 has been tested and shown to meet the JASO-MA friction test. This particular certification is important for motorcycles because of the clutch design which is bathed in the engine oil."

This basically is really all that is important when it comes to an oil working in a clutch other than viscosity and shear.

I knew that was coming....

The wiki article takes a fair amount of liberty with the NAME of the stuff. Lest the argument be 'Rotella 30W is CF-2' while 'Rotella T 30W is CF-4', I specified the 'difference' between the two myself.

That difference is simply error or laziness. The oil is Rotella T. By trademark.

Try a wki search for 'Shell Rotella'...see what you get.


Consider what more (from this thread) is known about phosphorus/zinc additives...ILSAC specs.... and wet clutch use given this thread. To this point, it's the 'Energy Conserving' label that has been warned against..but with no particular 'why' about it.

Neat!