Dealer Edicate

Got questions? We got answers....
User avatar
paceyman
Supporting Member
Posts: 147
Joined: 08:47 pm Jan 11 2007
Country:
Location: Southeast Virginia
Contact:

Dealer Edicate

Post by paceyman »

I left my bike with a dealer last week who was to replace the front fork seals and take a compression reading on my 06 KDX200.

The next phone call I got was him telling me that the compression was at 170 and that he removed the cylinder and found a scuffed piston and cylinder. I was shocked that he went ahead with that work without consulting me. Even though I was pissed, I went ahead, authorized the Wiseco replacement and went on with life.

I've read on this forum the hard way to break in 4 strokes and wanted to verify that will also work with 2 strokes as well? He said that he'll have it broken in before I race this weekend. That is another hard one to believe. Should I change the tranny oil before the race? (10.8 mile hare scramble)

The second part of this is how much scuffing is too much before I need to replate the cylinder?

Lastly, I've been told that an '06 KDX 200 should be good for 4 years before I needed to do an upper. Why would a dealer just take this sucker off without calling me first? Chapped about this I am...

Since new, running Bel Ray MC1 but recently changed to 957 Maxima. He said that there was some blowby and that it was carboned up pretty bad. I've requested photos of the current status so I can see it for myself.

Any thoughts on this would be very enlightening. Thanks as always.
Paceyman
06 KDX200
08 KX65 - Son's
04 KTM 50SX - Daughter's
06 KTM 125SX - TBD
03 Honda CR85R - Son's
06 Polaris 300 Hawkeye - Wife's
User avatar
Indawoods
Creator and Founder
Creator and Founder
Posts: 9951
Joined: 09:59 am Jun 12 2003
Country:
Location: Midwest

Post by Indawoods »

I would not pay for it if he took it upon himself. PERIOD!

Break it in the hard way... it's the only way I do them anymore... it will be broke in within an hour... :wink:
*** Administrator //***
****'95 KDX 200/****

"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "
User avatar
fuzzy
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 3437
Joined: 01:29 pm Jun 18 2003
Country:
Location: Fredneck, MD

Post by fuzzy »

2nd that...

HE's gonna break it in? On a dyno I hope. Otherwise, just use the race to break it in, and tell him to give it to you fresh.
'91 KDX 200 Project $300 KDX
'95 KDX 200 Project $600 KDX
'94 WR 250 Always a project
User avatar
jc7622
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 677
Joined: 01:53 pm Apr 24 2007
Country:
Location: Oklahoma

Post by jc7622 »

I did my first fork job a couple weeks ago (seals and bushings). It was easier than I ever thought it would be. There are even videos on Youtube and at RockyMountainMC that show it being done.

You can get a compression tester at Harbor Freight for something like $12.
User avatar
skipro3
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4329
Joined: 11:58 pm Nov 04 2004
Country:
Location: BANNED FOR LIFE!!
Contact:

Post by skipro3 »

Tell him you are reporting him to B.A.R. if he charges you for anything other than parts. He had NO business taking apart the top end for any reason other than to scam you.
Jerry

I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
User avatar
kawagumby
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 927
Joined: 10:09 am Nov 30 2006
Country:
Location: California

Post by kawagumby »

A scuffed cylinder on a bike without a lot of time on it usually means the piston has deposited some aluminum on the cylinder walls due to overheating ( this assumes no dirt had gotten past the air filter). The reason I say that is that such a situation does not harm the cylinder, all that needs to be done is clean the aluminum off of the cyl walls.

I would be really uncomfortable letting a dealer break in a piston/rings. Some of the most real-world ignorant people I've met have been those working in dealerships -

I would also request to keep the old piston. The whole situation sounds grossly bogus to me, and I can only wonder (like you) if the job was really warranted.

I'm telling ya guys, do the work yourself! Get your hands dirty and don't be afraid to ask questions. There are folks here and on other sites who are experienced and honest - and will gladly help. :supz:

I disagree with some here on break-in, I've done over a hundred 2-stroke rebuilds (both steel and plated cylinders) and I feel the best way to assure a good break-in is in the preparation of the cylinder, i.e, no glaze (but no honing with a plated cyl), no oil on the cyl walls just WD-40, and a gentle first 5 minutes followed by a cool-down. Jamm'n out of the hole in a race is just asking for trouble IMO, as you may end up depositing overheated piston material on the cyl walls and not even knowing it, until the next, premature, rebuild. Not checking the bike out with a ride after ANY service will increase your chances of a DNF tremendously.
1994 KDX200, Beta 200rr, yz125, yz250, kx100 modded for adult, gasgas contact 250.
User avatar
jc7622
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 677
Joined: 01:53 pm Apr 24 2007
Country:
Location: Oklahoma

Post by jc7622 »

Typically a shop will call everytime they run into a problem to get the go ahead from the customer. Normally in this situation they would call you if the compression was low to see if you wanted them to take it apart. Then once it was apart they would have usually called you to discuss what they had found and to go over the options. Or at least the non-dealer cycle shop I use does it that way. My auto mechanic does it the same way.

The only other scenario would be if they thought for some reason that you had given them the go ahead in the very beginning to fix whatever is wrong.
User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6943
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country: US
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr »

The guy is an idiot, a canker, and a thief.

He took it apart because the pressure reading was too high? Is that the point? 170psi is NOT too high for starters. Besides that...the WAY a compression reading is done varies so hugely...gauges used to measure pressure also vary hugely..put the two together and if he THOUGHT it was too high, the margin of error certainly puts the number well within reasonable numbers.

BUT....having asked for a dealer to DO a 'compression check' on your bike kind'a begged for what you got.

I'd no sooner allow someone else to break in my bike than I would pay them to do a compression check on my bike. :wink:

You requested photos? You WILL get the old piston back, wont' you. Of course...this moron may well not give you YOUR piston back. Who knows whose it is...or was.

Good grief. This is wrong on so many levels as to be just plain silly.

Yes. You should change the oil. Why? How about why not? Granted..the two aren't related..nothing in the top end area touches tranny oil. I would (and do) anyway. Change it again after the first ride, too.

How much scuffing? To start with, I doubt the term even applies. The cylinder coating is HARD STUFF. It's not going to scuff. You may transfer metal from the piston to the cylinder wall..but that doesn't make it scuffed. Such metal transfer is resolved by REMOVING the aluminum FROM the coated surface (usually with an acid). As far as the question, 'When do I replate?'..replating is called for when the PLATING has failed..when the cylinder is gouged or the plating is peeling. In any case, plating will 'fail' due to some OTHER failure of either process or part.

Example: You don't compress the rings at the intake port when you install the piston..you don't properly oil the rings or the piston when you install the piston...or you don't remove the aluminum stuck to the cylinder from the OLD piston before you install a NEW piston.....or you put a forged piston in a cylinder with .002" cylinder-to-piston gap...ALL of those things can cause the plating to 'fail'.

You will be far Far FAR ahead of the game getting your bike back..doing the the job yourself. I have never...Never...NEVER NOT been screwed by a dealer. Never.

IMO and all that..but I'm on YOUR side..even if that means you get your finners a little scuffed up in the process.


The original question concerned etiquette. This surpasses any question of such. This is criminal.

**edit**

gumby alreay said summa this I see...now. Why am I always the last to know? :roll:

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!
User avatar
paceyman
Supporting Member
Posts: 147
Joined: 08:47 pm Jan 11 2007
Country:
Location: Southeast Virginia
Contact:

Post by paceyman »

Well I see that you all didn't let me down. Thanks for the feedback and pep talk. I'll let this happen this time but if I hear you all correctly that you'll guide me through this next time. :prayer: I'm down with that.

The dealer races in my series and will bring my bike to the race this weekend. I'll report back what happens.

Thanks again for your input and suggestions.
Paceyman
06 KDX200
08 KX65 - Son's
04 KTM 50SX - Daughter's
06 KTM 125SX - TBD
03 Honda CR85R - Son's
06 Polaris 300 Hawkeye - Wife's
User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6943
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country: US
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr »

Let's see some pics of that scuffed up piston!

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!
User avatar
paceyman
Supporting Member
Posts: 147
Joined: 08:47 pm Jan 11 2007
Country:
Location: Southeast Virginia
Contact:

Post by paceyman »

>|<>QBB<
canyncarvr wrote:Let's see some pics of that scuffed up piston!
Still waiting on the photos... I just requested that he bring all parts replaced as well. I'll post everything pertenant.

Thanks all.
Paceyman
06 KDX200
08 KX65 - Son's
04 KTM 50SX - Daughter's
06 KTM 125SX - TBD
03 Honda CR85R - Son's
06 Polaris 300 Hawkeye - Wife's
User avatar
paceyman
Supporting Member
Posts: 147
Joined: 08:47 pm Jan 11 2007
Country:
Location: Southeast Virginia
Contact:

Post by paceyman »

Well here are the photos finally of my stock 200 piston. The dealer said that he was concerned about the scuffing. Remember this is an '06 run about 150 or so hours and is a spooge monster. I currently run the Motorex T2 @ 32:1.

Image

Image

Image

He replaced it with a Wiseco Prolite. Have about 6 rides on the piston and it is feeling pretty good.
Paceyman
06 KDX200
08 KX65 - Son's
04 KTM 50SX - Daughter's
06 KTM 125SX - TBD
03 Honda CR85R - Son's
06 Polaris 300 Hawkeye - Wife's
MX500
Member
Posts: 45
Joined: 01:11 am Jun 16 2008
Country:
Location: Central CA

Post by MX500 »

Looks like someone used a bit of fine sandpaper and went crossways on that piston. scuffing only occurs vertically, not horizontally and in circular motions. I think you got shafted. :?
User avatar
scheckaet
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 3740
Joined: 12:09 am Nov 10 2005
Country:
Location: edmond oklahoma

Post by scheckaet »

it does indeed look weird, but i'm no expert...
User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6943
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country: US
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr »

Why is there no 'finish' on the rings? And...the resultant blow-by would leave a good bit of carbon..and there is nothing but a polished-looking (shiny) piston surface in the ring land area.

Bet'cha $10 that piston didn't look like that when it came out.

Re: 'I think you got shafted.'

:hmm:

Was THAT with a circular motion, too? :shock:

Oh my!

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!
User avatar
paceyman
Supporting Member
Posts: 147
Joined: 08:47 pm Jan 11 2007
Country:
Location: Southeast Virginia
Contact:

Post by paceyman »

Okay fellas - back to this one...

Since the top end, I am not able to keep the tranny fluid filled. It's going somewhere and it's not leaking onto the ground. What could cause this to happen?

Like always - I never had to add a drop of tranny fluid before the top end job and now I do after every ride.

The cases have never been cracked on this '06 engine. Just the one top end.

Let me know what could be causing this and the fix.

Thanks.
Paceyman
06 KDX200
08 KX65 - Son's
04 KTM 50SX - Daughter's
06 KTM 125SX - TBD
03 Honda CR85R - Son's
06 Polaris 300 Hawkeye - Wife's
NewMexico505
Member
Posts: 78
Joined: 08:41 pm Feb 12 2009
Country:
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Post by NewMexico505 »

How do you know its your piston?

From what I have seen over the years, when customers bring in their bikes for basic work, the really easy stuff, like what you did with a compression test, its telling to repair shop that this guy does not know anything about the bike. Then the repair shop really works the customer over - taking care of them... found a "new" problem. This is easy money for the repair shop. In the future question this work they did a bit more. Usually, but not always a repair shop does not dig into a motor without getting paid for it. If you had said you did not do the work they would be paying to put it back themselves on their dime.

I have seen this at many dealers for auto also. The repair place taking care of my mother-in-laws jeep was ripping her off but being super sweet to her face. The jeeps brakes pads were gone, the radiator totally empty for at least a year! She never drove it more than a mile so it never even heated up.

Chalk this up to experience, I had this happen to me when I was younger.

-Erik
User avatar
skipro3
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 4329
Joined: 11:58 pm Nov 04 2004
Country:
Location: BANNED FOR LIFE!!
Contact:

Post by skipro3 »

You have a crank bearing problem. It's letting oil past the seal on the clutch side and putting the oil from the tranny into the low end of the bike, where it mixes with the fuel charge and is burned. This will require a rebuild on the bottom end unfortunately.

Of course it goes without saying; do not take it back to that dealer. He is a thief and should be shot on site! Well, at least a sharp poke in the nose. At least I would if I ever saw him at a race or the grocery store; POW, just walk right up to him and give him one right in the old snozola.

Replacing crank bearings is not for a beginner who doesn't have someone with experiance standing there guiding them. It takes special tools and some understanding of how everything works with everything else. Not that you or anyone else couldn't do it, just that it's not the easy top-end job that changing a piston is.

You can start by saving yourself some money and breaking things down. Pull the motor out of the bike, take down the top end; pull head, cylinder, piston. Take the ignition off and the clutch too. Break it down to the point where the cases get split, then take it in and TELL THEM what to do. Also TELL THEM that they won't be paid a dime for ANYTHING if they do any work that you do not pre authorize. Remind them you've been screwed by another shop and that you are PISSED about that and don't trust ANY repair shop including theirs and that they have to earn your trust starting with this SIMPLE job and set of instructions. Keep a stern voice and look the guy right in the eye. Watch him and see if he can meet your gaze. If he won't look at you, especially when he replies and is talking to you, then just pick up your motor and leave. If he asks, tell him you don't trust him. If you do decide that this place can do the work without wondering if you are getting screwed, then also tell him that whatever the outcome, you plan on making it known to every one you know and probably a lot of folks you don't know as well; a good job and he can expect you to sing the praise at every race and event you attend. But screw you and everyone in the county will know about it because you've been taken and will make sure people know about it.

People....
Businesses MUST understand that WE the CUSTOMER is the boss. We write the paycheck. We set the rules and parameters, not the ones we employ!!!! In today's economy it won't be hard to find a REAL mechanic who wants to earn a stellar reputation doing just this type of work.
Jerry

I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
hockeyboysomers
Member
Posts: 74
Joined: 12:57 pm Jan 23 2007
Country:

Post by hockeyboysomers »

25 years ago I worked for a Yamaha Stealership as a mechanic. A guy brought in his Honda 750 for a tune up. The bike ran like **** During the tune-up I discovered his air filter was clogged up with tons of gunk, it weighed about ten pounds. Since we were a Yamaha shop the store owner told me to do the rest of the tune-up and leave out the air filter, he would order one. I buttoned up the bike minus the air filter, and test ran the bike for a minute to make sure it ran. It ran great. Needless to say the shop owner called the guy and told him his bike was done,and to come pick it up. The bike left the shop that day. The bike owner came up to me and thanked me for fixing his bike and making it run so well. I was scared to death the bike owner would discover the filter was gone when he fried his motor and come looking for me. I quit soon after. The shop owner was always doing this kind of scam. Charging for a full tune up when I only replaced a spark plug. Rebuilding the carb when I did nothing but drain the float bowl, turning back the miles on HIS bike when so he could sell it as new. You name it he did it. Moral of the story is don't ever trust a Dealership.
User avatar
Indawoods
Creator and Founder
Creator and Founder
Posts: 9951
Joined: 09:59 am Jun 12 2003
Country:
Location: Midwest

Post by Indawoods »

I agree 100%!

I do all my own work... always have.... If I needed something like a main bearing replacement and couldn't do it myself, it would go to Eric Gorr....
*** Administrator //***
****'95 KDX 200/****

"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "
Post Reply