HELP!!!! KIPS Problems?

[rdsrf]

HELP!!!! I'm in the process of installing a new piston in my 2000 KDX 220. I'm at the point where I need to disconnect the KIPS shaft lever nut and shaft lever. The manual states that you need to remove this nut to disconnect the shaft lever. Well, I was going abouut doing this and I pulled up on the shaft and the whole thing moves up about a 1/2" and I can just rotate the shaft lever out of the way. This doesn't seem right to me. Why would the manual state that you need to do this if it can be just lifted and rotated out of the way? Is something busted internally to allow this to happen?

[Jeb]

I don't believe you should be able to do this; mine doesn't move up. Even if you can, it would be hard to have the confidence that it was returned to the right spot. That's my opinion anyway.

You are going to want to take off the right-hand cover. Not too big of a deal. Then check what you're seeing with what you see from your service manual (or post a pic or two for the troops to look at). It does sound like something's broke or loose but a visual is needed to ID.

[Jeb]

The online manual calls the phillips head screw along the shaft the plug screw; if it is removed there's a pin that must be removed in order to remove the shaft, i.e. it sounds like it keeps the shaft from coming out like you described is happening to you. You might remove this plug screw and see if the pin is visible. Perhaps it's been sheared or something.

[Indawoods]

Time to pull the lower case cover... you have some parts to replace. Do not go on without doing this.

[rdsrf]

Oh great. It's always the wierd stuff for me.

[Indawoods]

Read this... http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... hlight=rod

[rdsrf]

Thanks for finding that post. I'm wondering if the previous owner broke this thing before I bought it 5 years ago! There was some non OEM looking sealer on the KIPS cover when I removed it. That would be amazing if it's been running all this time like that. I'll get to work removing the cover and checking it out. Looks like the bike is going to be down for a while. I suppose I might as well replace the clutch and water pump bearing/seal while I'm in there. Any clutch brand recomendations? Damn, I just remembered I changed the trans oil without even 1 ride on it.

[Jeb]

I wouldn't spend the time/money on replacing the clutch or water pump bearing/seal unless there's an indication that there's a problem. It certainly would be worthwhile to pull the clutch basket off and file any notches on the inside of the basket fingers if needed. Check your friction and steel plates and only replace if needed.

The link describes a broken assy on the bottom of the shaft - your problem seems different because you can move the shaft UP. Whatever is missing or broken to allow the shaft to move UP (like the pin behind the phillips plug screw) moves the pin out of the way of the governor groove permitting shaft rotation, so it's conceivable that nothing's broken at the bottom of the shaft. Your problem may cost you some money but may not be that bad nor should it take too long to fix.

[Indawoods]

So... how could it "I can just rotate the shaft lever out of the way" if everything was correct below?

[rdsrf]

I got the right side engine cove off and evrything looks fine. It seems the pin that retains the shaft is mysteriously missing. No pin in there at all and none that I could find in the bottom of the engine case. I think it will be fine after I install a pin. I can't imagine that little part will be easy to get!!
Unless the stuff is really expensive, I'm going to change the water pump bearing, seal, and the clutch. I might as well while I have it apart. The clutch has taken a lot of abuse just from myself....no telling how much it withstood wiith the previous owner. I'm sure I will have to do it sooner than later.

[Jeb]

So... how could it "I can just rotate the shaft lever out of the way" if everything was correct below?

Since he could pull the shaft UP (maybe OUT is another way of thinking of it) by half an inch because of the pin he found missing (the one behind the plug screw, the one he's referring to as the "retaining" screw if I understand him correctly), he would be pulling the pin (the one at the bottom that some break that normally rests in the slot in the governor) UP (or out) of the slot. Once that happened he would be free to rotate the shaft.

Does that make better sense?

[rdsrf]

That is exactly what happened.

As far as how this occured? I'm guessing the screw was removed or vibrated loose, the cover was placed face down or the bike went down on the right side in a crash and the pin subsequently lost. The previous owner then replaced the screw without the pin. All the cover bolts had anit-seize on them so someone removed it for some reason in the past. How it ran all this time is beyond me.

[canyncarvr]

Re: 'I got the right side engine cove off and evrything looks fine.'

I don't know what you're looking at or what you are expecting to see, but this needs further explanation.

Specifically, the bottom of the governor shaft and it's attached pin. It should be straight, no bends or angles. Is it?

Jeb: IS the slot the governor shaft fits into NOT under tension? You can move the shaft up and down without the slot closing?

FWIW...I would assume any used KDX to have a damaged KIPS until I verified it wasn't.

[rdsrf]

Yes, the bottom of the shaft and the pin appear to be straight and not damaged. If I cycle the shaft back and forth the way it seems that it is intended to operate, it would function correctly.

I find your last comment rather interesting. Is the KIPS system known to be unreliable and often malfunctioning or not functioning?

Maybe it hasn’t been working all this time and I just don’t know the difference? Shoot, if that’s the case, who needs the darned KIPS….The bike’s been working great for me!

[Jeb]

. . . IS the slot the governor shaft fits into NOT under tension? You can move the shaft up and down without the slot closing?

FWIW...I would assume any used KDX to have a damaged KIPS until I verified it wasn't.

There's two pins in this discussion: one that keeps the shaft from sliding up (call this pin A, this pin was missing in this case) and the pin at the end of the shaft that transfers movement from the action of the governor up into the KIPs (call this pin B).

The governor assy is under tension from the spring. There's preloading going on in there . . . but my recollection from recent assembly is that the pin B is not held under tension from the governor. If one were to lift the shaft (in the absense, of course, of pin A) straight up without rotation, the governor shouldn't move. Once lifted up out of the governor assy, the shaft could be rotated (within the constraint of pin B hitting the inside of the case somewhere). There, of course, IS tension on the shaft when pin B is down in the governor slot - where it should be - and you try to rotate it. That's where I'm gathering that damage is most often done.

This problem seems different than the normal, "I twisted the shaft, something snapped or gave, and now it's loosey-goosey". In this case pin A was missing to permit pin B to be lifted out of the governor slot. Or at least it would seem that way based on the description.

To reiterate, with KIPs closed and everthing lined up as it should be, I don't know what tension the shaft would be under until you try to rotate things . . .

[canyncarvr]

Understood.

It seems unlikely to me that the assy, missing pin A, could be as easily moved DOWN (into) the spring assy as it could be moved UP (out of) the assy.

If so, it would mean it is not touching anything and the initial movement of the activating assy would be wasted on the space.

There have been instances when riders thought their bike ran great and the KIPS was broken. They found what they had indeed been missing out when the KIPS was fixed!

Do not force the shaft/pin assy against the spring. That is backwards (opposite) from the way the KIPS is activated by the spring/weight assy. Regardless that it may seem to not matter...it does. Rotating (driving, whatever) the 'driving' against the 'driven' does NOT equate to rotating the 'driven' against the 'driving'.

Re: Is it known to be unreliable?

In the 'E' series, yes. Breakage is common, although not the part under discussion here.

In the 'H' series (yours), no. What IS common is folks trying to get the nut off the shaft using a CCW motion without supporting the shaft. THAT is what breaks stuff.

If'n it was some folk other than myself that put a wrench on it, I would assume it to be hose-`e-vued.

Well...using a CCW motion to loosen the nut AND supporting the shaft isn't going to help anything, either.

[Jeb]

. . . there have been instances when riders thought their bike ran great and the KIPS was broken. They found what they had indeed been missing out when the KIPS was fixed!

rdsrf - like the man says, if you thought your KDX was great before, wait 'till the powervalve comes into play.

[canyncarvr]

It may have been working fine. Kind of hard to know at this point.

Any mechanical activation similar to the KIPS is going to have an outward force involved...the 'thing' (whatever it is) is going to tend to get sqeezed 'out'. That's the point of the pin, 'eh?

I have no idea how much the governor rod gets squeezed 'out' when the pin is missing. Jeb, being the KIPS 're-engineer' on the board, should run a complete test on the entire matter so we'uns kin lern sumthin'!