KIPS Governor Mod

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Jeb
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Post by Jeb »

S'more feedback . . .

a few of us KDXers went riding Friday at a place called Haspin Acres (pictures soon) so I got the chance to get a seat-o-the-pants feel during woods riding. LOTS of technical riding: rocks, hills, mud, roots, little logs, big logs, creeks, deep sand, more mud & steep hills with rocks, mud, deep roots: KDX country! I think Andy's tripmeter came up with less than 25 miles for 5-6 hours of riding.

First time for a ride like this since September, and the first with the governor change.

I found myself stalling a bunch. While I would have to chalk some if not a bunch of it up to being all thumbs and generally being unpracticed, some of it was this inclination to run it a gear higher. I found the bike wanted to rev quickly which promoted shifting up, so I'd be lugging it, motoring along just fine, then I'd cross a big log or other obstacle with the front wheel lightened or lifted followed by a thump as my rear wheel stuck.

Moving from a 12/47 to a 12/45 didn't help much for this kind of terrain I think!!

Anyway, I'm describing my lack of skill rather than how the governor changed things. If my memory of the "before" serves my correctly, I found it easier to get the front wheel over obstacles. I can't say that the change hurt anything.

I changed the oil yesterday and found a few very small light-colored partilces! I started the bike up and watched the KIPS movement, no difference so everything is still OK as far as I can tell. I'll keep changing the oil and keep watching . . .

oh yeah, the gold valves in the USD forks are TERRIFIC, removed the harshness of the forks over the small stuff. Took some decent sized logs with NO problems, ate 'em right up. BIG thumbs up.
"No farmer ever plowed a field by turning it over in his mind" -George E. Woodbury

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canyncarvr
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Post by canyncarvr »

You run a FWW? Consider it if you don't.

Interesting 'stall' aspect. A quicker revving engine (KIPS early) maybe doesn't coincide with when port timing and pipe effect start working.

Trying to understand (and improve) what the Kaw Injuneers came up with in the first place starts with the assumption they KNEW what they were doing in the first place.

Wouldn't it be funny to find out THEIR idea of design was...'Hey! This might work!'

Ask THEM about port timing, KIPS activation and the like...you may get in return a blank stare and a, 'Huh?'

'Light colored' particles? Lightly colored BRASS particles?

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Post by Jeb »

RE: A quicker revving engine (KIPS early) maybe doesn't coincide with when port timing and pipe effect start working - that's a great point, glad you brought it up. Could very well be. Perhaps in the wide open and the short stint on the mx track I didn't notice it but while I was lugging it much more in that "region" where the KIPS is maybe opening a little too early it became noticeable. And yes, I believe those were BRASS particles. So the plan is to run it a few hours soon and change the oil again to have a look see. If I see more brass particles I'm taking the side cover back off to inspect. If I do that I'll likely put the OEM balls back in place and keep the new spring in place which should put me somewhere between where I am now and where I was. I believe the spring had more effect anyway.

A BTW but worth a comment - I had some slight spooging which has been for all practical purposes non-existent. Presumably from all the lugging about, but I wonder if there's some relationship to perhaps the KIPS-to-port timing-is-off theory. I'm not good enough to explain why, but the thought remains.

The experiment continues . . . BWA HA HA HA

I don't have a FWW. It's crossed my mind but I didn't want to risk disappointment in losing the get-up-and-go punch. Is my suspicion true? I know many will add them to smooth out a hit in a more aggressive bike and I don't know if I like mine getting any less aggressive (being able to raise the front wheel for example).
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Post by canyncarvr »

Re: losing get-up and go punch

I think you may be surprised...in a good way.

While a FWW will arguably 'smooth out' a 2T hit..that hit I don't think is where you're sensing that get-up. The smoothness added with a FWW males that sense of power wider. The front end will still lift but it will be more controllable..and likely happen sooner. My 200 acts that way, anyway.

Considering the other benefits...much reduced stalling on dowhills w/compression braking for example... you owe yourself a tryout. I'm betting you will like it.

Steahly is the place to get one.

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Post by Jeb »

Got a few hours in yesterday in some great riding territory with Rick, we had a ball (especially Rick since he got to watch me take a swim). Bike was ever so snappy today compliments of a better air screw setting. Changed the oil today and . . . more brass specs! Took the side cover back off to inspect. I expected to see the little brass balls to be marred all over. To my great surprise, each of the four balls had one small flat spot, no kidding!! I wish I could take a picture (poor resolution that close), it's very bizarre. You would think the things being spheres would reorient and wear would happen all over. But it's like they never rotated. An examination of the inside of the retainer shows where the brass wore - to the side closest to the case (outside).

Remember, these brass balls have the SAME diameter as the OEM balls. They're not bigger.

If someone told me this would happen I wouldn't have believed it.

So the OEM balls are back in, but the new spring looked fine so I kept it in. My suspicion that the spring accounted for most of the initial change was confirmed - I was able to button things back up before dark, cranked her up, and it's still obvious that the KIPs is opening early (by observation via the left hand side access).

Can't wait to see how the new arrangement works!

'Moral of the story is brass balls are better left for other things . . .
"No farmer ever plowed a field by turning it over in his mind" -George E. Woodbury

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Post by Jeb »

We went riding again this afternoon, got maybe 3 hours at the "new" place that we're falling in love with. Great mixture of all the good, juicy technical stuff as well as more balls to the wall parts.

I don't remember the bike running this well. This son of a gun has great grunt on the low side, then midrange comes and so does some dynomite acceleration.

Spoo increased. So I have more unburned fuel, but to be honest I've got the feeling that it doesn't mean that something's not right. The bike just rips.

My thought is the root cause is that stoichiometrically there's a slight excess of fuel. Other than that things seem really peachy.

Guess I'll just have to buy extra S/A packing!!!
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Post by canyncarvr »

Re: 'Spoo increased. So I have more unburned fuel, but to be honest I've got the feeling that it doesn't mean that something's not right. The bike just rips.'


A good point to be repeated...repetitively even. Where the bike runs the best is (probably) where it should be. Tunewise, that is. If that 'best' comes with a drip...so what?

Once a flat spot is induced..it will tend to be aggravated. Whatever the cause of it 'not' rotating/moving on its axis thus leaving a flat is only going to get 'more'.


So...who's going to be the 200 guinea piggy?

Let me know how it turns out!

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Post by Jeb »

A BTW - the spring is a Smalley part no. CS112-M6-S17. Whoever wants to be the guinea piggy, go to smalley.com to read about these springs, then fill out a "free sample" request - costs nothing!
"No farmer ever plowed a field by turning it over in his mind" -George E. Woodbury

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Post by canyncarvr »

I can tell you for a fact that smiley.com has no such item or offer.

But then....neither does smally.com. :shock:

Now then....

How 'bout CS112-M6?

Is that it?

CS112-M6
Crest-to-Crest (Flat Wire Compression Springs) Wave Spring, Squared-Shim Ends

??

Carbon or stainless?

Maybe that's the -17 part of it..but I don't see that on their spec sheet.

See what you started?

BTW...how does the 2mm shorter part 'fit in'? I don't mean how does it fit physically, I mean how well does it work in the assy.

54lb/in?? That's a pretty hefty spring!!

Did you have to replace the gasket? Use any RTV on re-assy? I see no gasket on either face of your parts.

Hey!! These guys own Spirolox!!! I've wondered where I would ever get replacements. I used them as wrist pin locks in my Duster. They do NOT come out..uh..just about NEVER...not even when you WANT 'em to!!

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Post by fuzzy »

Yeah, we use those in the kart engines since they turn ludacrous RPM's...They SUCK to get out. :lol:
'91 KDX 200 Project $300 KDX
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Jeb
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Post by Jeb »

>|<>QBB<
canyncarvr wrote:I can tell you for a fact that smiley.com has no such item or offer.

But then....neither does smally.com. :shock:

Now then....

How 'bout CS112-M6?

Is that it?

CS112-M6
Crest-to-Crest (Flat Wire Compression Springs) Wave Spring, Squared-Shim Ends

??

Carbon or stainless?

Maybe that's the -17 part of it..but I don't see that on their spec sheet.

See what you started?

BTW...how does the 2mm shorter part 'fit in'? I don't mean how does it fit physically, I mean how well does it work in the assy.

54lb/in?? That's a pretty hefty spring!!

Did you have to replace the gasket? Use any RTV on re-assy? I see no gasket on either face of your parts.

Hey!! These guys own Spirolox!!! I've wondered where I would ever get replacements. I used them as wrist pin locks in my Duster. They do NOT come out..uh..just about NEVER...not even when you WANT 'em to!!
Click on "Part Lookup", type in "CS112-M6", then click the "Samples" button. The "-S17" is a material suffix that'll be added if you choose stainless as a material of construction.

Squared-shim ends = flat ends.

I replaced the side cover gasket because it came apart in pieces the first time I removed it. This second time, the gasket being relatively fresh was in good shape for this effort and thus remained.

You're right about the stoutness of the spring, but that's what the OEM spring is like (you'll see if you pursue). I carefully tried a couple of different weights on both the OEM and the Smalley and came up almost the same every time, almost being that the Smalley would register ever so slightly less compression distance than the OEM. It's almost hard to tell the difference. BUT . . . since the Smalley compressed practically the same distance AND is 2mm shorter, it has a little less of a rate than is apparent, i.e. if Smalley made this spring the exact height of the KDX OEM spring, the compression distance would be just a little more.

Hopefully that's not too confusing.

AND . . .

the spring is roughly 2mm shorter meaning that there's a little less preload on the spring, but there is still preload.

Combined features of the Smalley - slightly less preload with a slightly less spring rate make a noticeable difference.

The spring fits in the assembly like it was made to fit the assembly! Couldn't you see that in my wonderful pictures? :wink:
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Post by canyncarvr »

Re: ' there's a little less preload on the spring, but there is still preload.'

Perfect.

I hadn't gotten to the point the -S17 part was tagged to a SS spring.


Picking not being the point..but, this:

'since the Smalley compressed practically the same distance AND is 2mm shorter, it has a little less of a rate than is apparent...'

..is the sort of thing I ponder over.

If 'same distance' means the length change..two springs, 2' and 1' long, both compressing the 'same distance' with a given load makes them both the same rate. How long either is has nothing to do with their rate. It has a LOT to do with their capacity..but not their rate.

Lest I think I don't understand any of what you are saying, '..if Smalley made this spring the exact height of the KDX OEM spring, the compression distance would be just a little more' makes perfect sense.

If I substitute 'spring heighth' for 'compression distance' (the two not being the same thing) in some places, everything you said is perfectly clear.

I understand the intended effect, I understand how the Smalley spring gets you there.

Any spring that shows 'less compression distance' with a given load than another spring is a higher rate spring. Again..that having nothing to do with capacity.

Yes. I could see it in your wonderful pictures...those wonderful pictures being JUST AS WONDERFUL as any picture I'VE taken that close..yes...in macro mode (should any yellow rider want to chime in with a photography lesson...as has been done before).

I just like the LOOK of the expanded spring. That and I have reason recently to consider dropping the KIPS switch point.

Thanks for the info!!!

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Post by Jeb »

I'm lookin' forward to your comments on how this works for the 200 . . . I hope you likes!!

Just to see if we're on the same page (and we may be) about spring compression distance vs. spring rate, consider this: if you take the stock spring and clip some of it off, you have effectively changed the spring rate, i.e. the same weight placed on the now shorter spring will compress the spring slightly less (compress = the change in distance). Agree?

Click here to see the effect of shortening a spring on spring rate. Change only the number of coils and click the "Find k constant" button (k is the spring rate).
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Post by canyncarvr »

Yep. But..that's not what I was considering. My reference to different heighths (2' and 1') did NOT refer to two 2' springs with 'a' rate..one of them cut in half (fewer coils). The references was to an 'x' rate spring 2' long, and the same 'x' rate spring 1' long.

..that understood 'cuz the same pressure compressed both springs the same amount.

The equation noted in your post (and your input to it) wasn't considered.

The Smalley spring being shorter means nothing in regard to its rate or load. Besides that...it's not a helical compression spring, either.

Re: 'if Smalley made this spring the exact height of the KDX OEM spring, the compression distance would be just a little more.'

IF the 'if' is the case, the rate of the Smalley spring (given a greater compression difference)...would be less.

..although it's heighth has nothing to do with that...unless the two springs are given the same rate.

btw...I understand height to be correct..and heighth to NOT be correct. It's just that I don't care..and prefer the incorrect form! How's THAT!!??

I'm sure you understand what you're saying...I'm just about almost sure I think I understand what I might be saying, too....maybe. At least...I understand what I'm saying, heighth or not!

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