Comparing the KDXs to the KTM 200 (and the GasGas EC300)

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thebleakness
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Post by thebleakness »

I really want to try a new 08 GG 250EC. Those are supposed to be really sweet bikes. A buddy of mine rides an 06 EC250 and loves it, says he'll buy another gas gas any day. I wish they were alittle lighter though. From what I remember they were heavy. I guess anything will feel light to my 450 though! lol
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Post by AZRickD »

The Gas Gas web site http://www.gasgasmotos.es/esp/frame.htm
has it at 98KG, or about 215 to 216 pounds. This is around nine pounds lighter than the e-start 250/300 XC-W.

There might be an 07 250 there as well as an 05 and 07 300. I'll let you know.
I done KX-ed QuailChaser's KDX220R
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Post by Mr. Wibbens »

>|<>QBB<
thebleakness wrote:I'm 145 lbs, the KDX has power but I wanted more. The 450 fills that niche nicely imo.
145 ?? LOL

Got you by 120 lbs and the KDX has all I need as a woods bike
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Post by thebleakness »

>|<>QBB<
Mr. Wibbens wrote:>|<>QBB<
thebleakness wrote:I'm 145 lbs, the KDX has power but I wanted more. The 450 fills that niche nicely imo.
145 ?? LOL

Got you by 120 lbs and the KDX has all I need as a woods bike
150 actually now, and yes I get bored sometimes. Type A personality maybe? How often do you ride in sandwashes? Get a KDX in a sand wash and the compare it too the CRF. Worlds of difference right there. Even if I don't use he power, it's nice to know that it's available. Living at 7k' and then riding about 9k' makes it really nice to have some power to spare.

Those figures on the ec250 are nice. For some reason I was thinking they were in the 240-250 range. I don't know where I came up with that figure though. :butthead: I really liked the 200 I raced. I would consider buying one in an instant. I'm thinking of saving up money during the school year, selling the KDX and getting rid of the tons of crap I have in house right now and by summer time I'll have enough for another woods bike. haha

BTW Rick, 14/76 O/A at the TRS race! Booyah!
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Post by AZRickD »

BTW Rick, 14/76 O/A at the TRS race! Booyah!
I got beat by teenaged girls.

Rick
One of the "Lost Boys"

Certified C-minus Racer: Still guaranteed 2.5 mph slower than mid-pack (if you throw out that pesky "Lost Loop" thingy).
I done KX-ed QuailChaser's KDX220R
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Post by Mr. Wibbens »

Sandwash? can't say I've ever ridden one or know wtf one is if I did?

We ride woods, this kinda stuff:

Image

Image

Big thumpers mostly screw up trails like this
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Post by Jeb »

In Kentucky we call them thickets. . .
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Post by KarlP »

Ran an Enduro this weekend in Mississippi.
60 land miles of single track, ~20 miles of it brand new TIGHT TIGHT never before ridden. We were on an early row and you really had to watch the arrows.

The KDX was King. Passed quite a few Thumpers in those sections, but not one KTM 200.

It was a great race, finished with dignity.
4th in my class, C-Senior, dropping 27 points. Overall was a AA guy who dropped 6 points.
Many DNF's

I get a tickle out of passing a $6000 KTM with my $3200 KDX, but don't stand a chance if it opens up a bit.
'08 KTM200xc
'99 CR/KDX Hybrid with that RB stuff done to it
KX100 for the boy
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Post by firffighter »

I just added an 11oz. FWW to my KTM 200exc along with the JD jet kit. These two mods have made this bike way more manageable. I can low lug it in 2nd and 3rd similar to my old KDX, and after 1/2 throttle you get a nice surge to loft the front wheel whenever you need it. Still not a sit down bike like my KDX, but it has its benefits in other areas. Still would like to try a KDX 220 with mods compared to the KTM 200
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Post by KarlP »

According to my buddy who rides a GG 200 and has tried my bike, I got more motor. He has a much more capable chassis.
'08 KTM200xc
'99 CR/KDX Hybrid with that RB stuff done to it
KX100 for the boy
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Post by AZRickD »

GasGas-Man (Girard) of the Houston contingent of the Gas Gas Riders Forum drove me up to somewhere NW of Lake Conroe, Texas for some romping in the National Forest north of the Houston Metro area.

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Introductions were made as we suited up in what would turn out to be some of the most humid riding I've done since Ohio. Girard said he wanted to warm up the Gasser so he put me on the WR250F for the first couple of miles. I think he really wanted to make sure I was worthy of riding on his brand new '07 GasGas250 (MX version).

I enjoyed my time on the Yammie. It was a very relaxing bike to ride. The power, while a bit lacking in the mid-range, rolled on smoothly and then hit if I needed it to in the upper revs. The suspension was shag-carpet smooth and behaved well on bumps when I was going slow to mid pace.

With several clicks to the suspension to make it a bit stiffer, I'd say it would be where I'd like it, especially for slow, techincal riding. Going faster wasn't much of a problem either and the WR tracked fairly well.

Getting speed on the WR required a big twist on the throttle. I'd have to re-grip the throttle to get an extra tug on the cable to get the engine moving. Maybe a different throttle cam is in order. It seemed like it behaved like a 4T version of a 125 2-stroke, with a little more bottom. It would chug fine in 1st and 2nd, but 3rd was a chore.

Handling was predictable and consistant, but a little slow. Slow to lean in and slow to turn. It got me wondering what a fantasy WR350 (OEM or kit) would feel like or maybe what the supposedly un-corked '08 WR250s would be like... or maybe a YZ250F...

Then I decided to kick start it a la a YZ. Not fun. The E-button brought it back to life.

Nice time. But it was time for a ride on the red Euro machine.

Ready To Ride:

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Being dubbed GasGas-worthy by Girard, I climbed upon the Spanish Lady and found the ergos to my liking. I've read that the GG line is very friendly for we sub-six-footers. My 5'9" frame and 30" inseam were impressed with the layout. The balls of my booted foot rested comfortably on the ground. Another half-inch and I would have been flat-footed. I might have rotated the bars a bit more forward, but their position allowed for a nice, comfortable standing position.

That seat. Gawd, that seat. A KTM is a couch by comparison. The GasGas seat is not only hard, it is in the shape of a trapezoid (a triangle with the pointy top cut off). The angles on the top of the seat nestle uncomfortably on one's nether regions. The two edges dig right ...(Edited by Moderator due to the grotesque description of a moto-wedgie)... resulting in excruciating pain when one gets too lax about one's sitting position. I would be standing as much as I could that day.

GG-Man told me that this 250 was an MX version in every sense of the word. Although he enjoys trail riding, this one was sprung and valved for the track. The flywheel weight (or lack thereof), would have this thing revving much quicker than the EC (enduro) line of Gassers, be they 250cc or 300cc.

"You mean like a KTM 250SX?" I asked?

"They wish." He cautioned, looking me over for any tell tale hint of fear as a bead of sweat anonymously trickled down the side of my head inside my helmet. The last time I rode Arizona's AZNative's impressive 250SX, it was at 7,000 feet, and even then I commented that I'd like to mellow it out some. What was this Gasser MX bike going to feel like at 650 feet?

I fired it up and we headed out. Things were happening a little fast for my taste and for the shakey hands of Gerard as he snapped this shot.

Image

It took a mile or two but I was able to come to terms with the bike. Loads of scary power, and I could only wonder what would happen when I found the hit. But there was no hit. It just kept producing power in a fairly linear way. Good for me.

Still, there was a lot of power to deal with. The first sections were all curvy flat track in first and second gear. I tamed the bike by riding in 2nd gear most of the time until I got accustomed. I thought that it would have difficulty pulling 2nd gear but the combination of the powerful motor, elevation, and the perfectly spaced six-speed tranny -- all was fine... even third gear was pulling well out of slow corners.

Part of the difference is that GG-Man put on a 52T rear sprocket which (I think) is 4 teeth bigger. It seemed perfect to me, from a pure ratio standpoint. But the power of the bike had me spinning the tire through the sand so much that I wondered if I could have ample control of this MX bike on a rocky hill climb.

Unfortunately, there would be no enduro 300 Gasser for me to test ride, so for now, I can only contemplate the behavior of a mellow CDI and a heavier flywheel (although the 275 modded bike I rode detailed below might give me a hint).

The 250MX bike did have the switchable CDI map on the bars, but I rode most of the time with it in "Rain" mode instead of "Sun" mode. I didn't notice the difference between the two settings and really didn't expect to since I rarely got a chance to take the bike through the entire rev range.

While I was figuring out the power issues I was having an interesting time with the handling. I assumed that it would turn as fast as a KTM200 (which turned too fast for me). In actuality, it turned somewhere in between the 200 and the '07 250SX/XC that I rode. Which was just perfect for me. I'm thinking that the lower seat height played a part in that as it allowed me to lean it in with more control.

As fast as it turned, I would have expected it to be unstable at speed, and/or wobbling through roots and rocks. On the contrary, it was paradoxically very stable and planted. When I began to get comfortable with the throttle I found some sections where I could go fast for three or four seconds over whoops (small and medium) as well as roots.

Of course, with the MX suspension, the faster I went, the more it liked it. The interesting thing was that I felt no sensation of the back end shifting left and right. It felt railed over some challenging terrain. The closest I've come to that sensation was on an '07 Honda CRF450X (which still felt big and clunky) as well as AZNat's and Derik Staley's KTM250s (a young twenty-something Arizona 250A rider). But the GasGas was better. I saw one nasty section coming ahead and I stopped, dialed down the Scotts steering dampener and took off. Straight and true with no deflections.

Here is the only straight section on the entire 20-mile loop. So starved for speed are these Houston riders that they fondly call this section "The Tramway."

I managed 4th gear:

Image

During part of the ride, Girard was riding behind me, and although I didn't notice it, he decided the shock needed the compression reduced a tad and the rebound slowed. He was satisfied with that. I didn't care one way or the other.

I also noticed that my riding position on this bike was more aggressive than I've been on other bikes. I thought it was the frame layout, but Girard pointed to the Pivot Pegs I had unknowingly been suspended upon. They only rotate about 15 degrees or so, but it made all the difference. When I was leaning forward, I wasn't on the edge of the pegs, I was on the pegs. The pegs felt larger than they were. Confidence inspiring.

The rear brake pedal had the same feeling. It felt as if it were the size of a half-dollar. I always found it with no fuss. Curious, I finally looked down to see why it felt the way it did. Nothing jumped out at me, but for some reason it worked well.

I also got to hop on the WEC version of the bike owned by Mister Boomhauer. This beauty had a 300 bottom end and a 250 top end with some sort of other mods that equated to a 275-ish bike. This bike *did* have enduro suspension and an engine that was perhaps somewhere in between a 250 and a 300, but I didn't ask what kind of porting or CDI it had. That bike rode well too, albiet somewhat differently in the behavior of the motor, jetting, and throttle. Everything else, down to the Pivot Pegs were the same.

At the end of the ride, I found myself drenched in sweat that can only be created by riding a dirt bike through twenty miles of turn course in 80% humidity next to a lake. I was completely soaked. I was more soaked than when we rode in the rain in Flagstaff. I was so soaked, that when I changed into my shorts to go eat pizza and drink beer, the waitress couldn't stop looking at my crouch. Turns out that the sweat from my undies had soaked through my shorts which made it look like I'd pottied myself.

Rick
I done KX-ed QuailChaser's KDX220R
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Post by art5 »

I beg to differ, theres always an alternative to a ktm 200 thats race ready from this specific manufacture lol, I have no problem competing on my 220
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/ ... ble001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/ ... ble002.jpg
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Post by Jeb »

Nice write-up, Rick.

Did you get a chance to really get into the powerband on the 250mx? You hear so much about GG's enduro machines, never about their mx rigs . . .

but if you do happen to be afforded the luxury of test riding a 250 or 300 EC, 'be nice to read a report on that as well. The thing that blew my mind when I test rode an '05 EC250 before I went with my 220 was how smoothly it would putter through the tightest figure 8's right in a parking lot, but open the throttle a little and she's off . . .

Thanks!
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Post by thebleakness »

>|<>QBB<
art5 wrote:I beg to differ, theres always an alternative to a ktm 200 thats race ready from this specific manufacture lol, I have no problem competing on my 220
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/ ... ble001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/ ... ble002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/ ... in0033.jpg
How much time and money do you have in that?
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Post by art5 »

bought a practically brand new 05 kdx 220 for 2700.00, removed the engine and electronics as well as front brake assy and headlight, purchased a complete chassis 03 kx 125 for 600. converted the front forks to fit kdx,kept shock,frame subframe and airbox and rear wheel, parted the rest out on ebay for 2500.00, bought new front wheel and forks off 06 250f and revalved as well, a front 20 in rim for 5.00 kept the rear 18 in rim and sold the complete rear hub for 100.00 off the kdx, all machine work done by me, purchased pipe off ebay as well as silencer for 125.00 all new plastic 80.00 100.00 for graphics, basically with everything I am in it for maybe 2000.00 at this point, and its new, and one off, buddy bought a new 07 200 xc 6500.00 out the door have ridden both No way would I trade him, not even the same bike, its that good, probably the best woods bike I have owned to date, added the 3.1 gal tank will hit about 60 miles, and it will run over 80. milles an hour , just need a little room to get it into 6th, no regrets on this side bad part is to own one you have to put in the time or buy someone elses work. List of goodies, renthal fat bars, 20 in front excel, 18 in rear, pivot pegz, twin chamber showas up front revalved,race tech rear, pro circuit monster off road graphics ,hand ade skid plate 6061 t 1 aluminum, pro circuit platinum 2 exaust as well as shorty silencer, off road handguards, boysen flex grip,works connection rad braces msr aluminum roost guards, clark 3.1 gal gas tank, buchannon heavy duty stainless spoke kits, IRC ve33 110 by 18 rear, 20 in bridgestone front, 35mm kdx 200 carb, sidewinder sprockets {stock size} RK o ring chain, rear kx250f chain guide, and progrip dual compound grips, fitted with a kx 03 250 kickstart lever and a kx 125 93 shifter, Not much more to put on it maybe a hydralic clutch but have not seen the need for it yet, Yea I think 2000.00 would be a good deal {not for sale}
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Post by 2001kdx »

Why go through all the trouble? I like the KDX for what it is, but if you really need a race machine, what's wrong with a KX250 motor? You can De-tune it!
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Post by art5 »

well now, because I could I guess, actually quite competitive motor wise, tough to beat A kdx engine in the woods about as close to 4 stroke as you can get with out all the headaches
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Post by AZRickD »

>|<>QBB<
Jeb wrote:Did you get a chance to really get into the powerband on the 250mx?.
The Houston woods we rode on are tight and flat. Very little room to get beyond 2nd gear. I was able to see how responsive the throttle was (very). If I were entering a whoop section on my KDX, I'd need a bit of room to spin up the motor to get me going over them. With the Gas Gas I could launch at any point before, during or after the first whoop. But that's what one would expect between the too. That being said, gimme a flywheel weight.

Since I'm not a "woods" rider, my taste is towards something that climbs hills. That's why I'm hoping to get a test ride on an EC300. I fellow club member has one on order and has promised me a ride, but it won't be 20 miles, I'm sure.

Engines aside, more impressive was the suspension and the lack of deflection (as in zero), and no swapping in the rear end. Very confidence-inspiring.

Rick
I done KX-ed QuailChaser's KDX220R
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Post by kawagumby »

>|<>QBB<
2001kdx wrote:Why go through all the trouble? I like the KDX for what it is, but if you really need a race machine, what's wrong with a KX250 motor? You can De-tune it!
As I think I mentioned before, the KX close ratio tranny is not nearly as versatile as the KDX either. A KX tranny is not the ticket for the really tight stuff, and if you gear it down by adding even one tooth on the rear it is noticeably slow when tapped out on open trails.
Even when I was younger the only time I rode my KX's was practicing and racing cross-country, otherwise I was on a much funner KDX.

I agree that the KX chassis conversion is the ultimate ticket also - very sweet - I'm always looking for a KX125 chassis now - Nice job on yours! :supz:
1994 KDX200, Beta 200rr, yz125, yz250, kx100 modded for adult, gasgas contact 250.
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Post by art5 »

stay with the 03 and up, I think you will be pleasantly surprised, I don't miss hangin my boots on the sidepanels either lol.
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