Voltage Regulator?

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DMrides220
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Voltage Regulator?

Post by DMrides220 »

Hey guys, All of my friends just left from my house for a ride and I am stuck here do to not having a head light. I tested the regulator and it seems that no current can flow through it at all, obviously it's effed. I am getting around 40 volts at the headlight at idle with it plugged in and the same with it unplugged. Is this right that I should have power without it even plugged in? Should I be looking for a short some where before the regulator and perhaps this is what caused the damage to the reg?

Boy what a downer! Oh well looks like a street bike ride tonight, right to the saloon!
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Post by canyncarvr »

You aren't likely testing current through the regulator...

OEM wiriing? Or changed in any way?

You are looking at AC, right? I assume so if you get a '40' number. That's probably good at an idle or high idle speed. A good unregulated number.

'Is this right...'

No. But that kind'a depends.

The yellow wire to the switch is unregulated from the lighting coil. In a working system (correctly wired and all) as soon as the light switch is 'made' the voltage is fed to the headlight and the regulator. You should then read around 14VAC or so at the headlight.

Check the rest of the wiring. Do you see the 40VAC at the regulator when the light switch is made? You shouldn't.


VRs on the KDX don't go bad very often.

Check your grounds. Check them by 'renewing' them...take off the fastener, remove the connectors, clean everything, put them back together with some NoAlox or suitable grease.

Oh..the 40VAC at the headlight plugged in or not may be 'right'..if some other things are wrong..like the red wire to the VR is disconnected..or a bad ground.

You have a taillight? A working one, I mean? Shouldn't.

This has happened before: Some have 'rewired' things (say to an Acerbis/UFO twin light) thinking the switched voltage is regulated. If you run the switch output just to one side of the lights..the other side to ground, the light will be VERY bright...for a VERY short time! It isn't realized that the regulator is switched INTO the circuit when the light switch is 'on'.

The KDX VR sees nothing when the lights aren't on.

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DMrides220
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Post by DMrides220 »

I did an ohm test on the regulator and got nothing.

I have not changed the wiring in any way, just all of a sudden headlight and taillight bulbs last about three seconds.

Yes, testing AC and getting 40 volts at high idle. And it does not make a difference whether the regulator is plugged in or not.

When I get home today I will check a few more thing like voltage at the reg and my grounds.

Something is definitely not right and I will figure this out, hopefully soon as it is getting darker earlier every day and fall riding is the best!
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Post by DMrides220 »

I just checked the voltage at the regulator

Headlight switch off = 11v

Headlight switch on = 45v

I am not very good with electrical stuff so this doesn't mean much to me.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Like...you know this already...but something is out of whack.

The readings you list above are pretty close to backwards. It's not real easy to tell if the OEM switch is on/off by looking at it..but I presume when it's 'off' is when the lights are lit?

Time to take the tank off to see what's what. Again...yellow is unregulated hot TO the switch. It goes NO place else. When switch is 'on' (check that with your meter..ohms), that feeds the lights AND the regulator (red wire).

Check the grounds!!

Given that everything is as stated (off=11, on=40) nothing comes to mind that would make that even possible.

Use your ohmmeter to make sure that when the switch is made, you get continuity to the regulator. That will be true even with the light blowed up.

You can use a battery as a test source, too. Not something with killer amps (not your car battery)..but a couple of AAs or somesuch. If you have a battery holder lying around for AAs..hook + to the switch..check for DC with your meter as you switch on/off, check at the regulator..stuff like that.

- to frame.

Does that 40VAC at hi idle go UP with the throttle? An unloaded (and unregulated) lite coil will put out over 100VAC at higher RPM. I'm not talking about 8000K.. The voltage should go up and down on the yellow wire with the throttle (unloaded/unregulated..switch off).

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Post by canyncarvr »

So...tha answer is....

???

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Post by DMrides220 »

Sorry, I was aggravated and had to let it go for a while. I got a new moose regulator and still nothing. Not really sure which way to hook up the wires but I tried both ways with no luck.

With the switch off I get about nothing at the reg.

With the switch on 35-50v depending on rpm

Yes I have continuity at the reg. with the switch on 4.7ohms. Nothing with it off.

And continuity at the bulb socket with the switch on 2.5ohms. Nothing with it off.

In my service manual it says I should have BK/R and BK/Y wires at the reg. but I have BK/Y and BN I don't think that has anything to do with the problem as it always worked before.

I'm also not really sure where all of the grounds are. I alway thought if you had a bad ground you would have no power.

Perhaps it is time to pull the entire harness off and check it.
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Post by canyncarvr »

The moose piece is an AC regulator, right? Sorry to keep pinging on the AC/DC part...but that issue has been a hangup lots of times in other situations.

Re: 'With the switch off I get about nothing at the reg.'

As it should be.

Re: 'With the switch on 35-50v depending on rpm'

That is normal IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT A CONNECTOR..AND THE VR IS UNPLUGGED..the key words being 'at' the regulator. If the regulator is connected..you obviously should NOT see an unregulated voltage there.

Again...the regulator is a two wire device. It's not that unreg power goes INTO it on one wire, THRU the VR, and regulated power comes OUT on another wire. It's a parallel situation. When the VR is 'in' the system, the whole system 'feels' the effect. Notice that the light switch does NOT go to the regulator, THRU the regulator..and back out to the lights. It goes to BOTH the lights AND the VR on the SAME WIRE.

OK...if you then see 35-50V with the VR in the system and the light switch 'on'...either the VR is bad, or the wiring is bad.

Take the gas tank off. You will see the grounds..a bunch of wires all fastened to the same frame spot.

Re: '..bad ground no power'

No. If you have NO ground you may have NO power. Even then, you would be surprised at how some loads can supply 'sort of' a 'kind'a' ground..and REALLY screw things up.

BAD grounds (connected, but not clean...not with zero resistance) give you all sorts of whacky crappola. Garbage In...Garbage Out pretty much.

Re: 'And continuity at the bulb socket with the switch on 2.5ohms. Nothing with it off.'

I hope I just don't get this part. NEVER check 'continuity' (resistance..ohms) with power applied..NEVER attempt to check current in parallel. Check voltage (or voltage DROP...somewhat different) with power applied and your meter connected in parallel..but that's all.

Continuity (ohms...resistance) is checked with power OFF!


Keep after it...you'll get it!!

BTW... take note that this: 'With the switch off I get about nothing at the reg.' is not at all the same as this: 'I just checked the voltage at the regulator: Headlight switch off = 11v'

For the record....what model is this?

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Post by DMrides220 »

Yes it is an AC reg. and yes I was checking the voltage at the reg with it unplugged.

When I did the ohm test on my old reg. I got nothing. The new reg. checks out OK.

I don't know much about electricity but I know enough to check continuity with no power in the system.

Does it make a difference what wire goes where on the reg.?

And also I have done tests at different times and gotten different readings as you mentioned. So I have to believe an intermittent problem do to a short or bad ground.

After I hooked up the new reg. I got 10-13v at the headlight socket, tested it several times. Fixed right? Shut off the bike hooked up the headlight wasted another bulb. Took it apart checked it again, right back to 40v.

Going to look for those grounds right now.
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Post by DMrides220 »

I think I found the ground at both bolt that hold coil? I took them of cleaned them and reassembled. Still no change.

I checked the voltage at the reg. with the bike running and the headlight switch on 8.6v.

Also with the switch off I am getting 5 or 6 volts at the headlight socket but no continuity when tested with the bike off. So how could I be getting power with the switch off?

It's a good thing I love this bike!
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Post by canyncarvr »

Yes it is an AC reg. and yes I was checking the voltage at the reg with it unplugged.

And when it was plugged in? What then?


When I did the ohm test on my old reg. I got nothing. The new reg. checks out OK.

You are checking the internal resistance against a known value? Some spec sheet says you should see (example) 550ohms...and that's what you see?

Or...you get A reading on the ohms scale on the new one...and had NO reading on the old one?

Sorry....THAT doesn't mean anything.


I don't know much about electricity but I know enough to check continuity with no power in the system.

Does it make a difference what wire goes where on the reg.?

Yep. The new VR should say what's in..what's not.

And also I have done tests at different times and gotten different readings as you mentioned. So I have to believe an intermittent problem do to a short or bad ground.


After I hooked up the new reg. I got 10-13v at the headlight socket, tested it several times. Fixed right? Shut off the bike hooked up the headlight wasted another bulb. Took it apart checked it again, right back to 40v.


Sounds like the 'intermittent' part is right, anyway. Check the wiring at every connector..clip in your ohmmeter..start wiggling stuff. Do the same for shorts..one lead in the harness, the other to ground (frame)..start wiggling stuff..listen for the meter to beep (considering your meter beeps on a short). Of course...that won't work on things that LOOK to be a short to a meter in the first place.

BTW...I wouldn't be too concerned that the wiring colors noted in a schiz are different on your bike. I went through a wiring hassle a few months back..two different manuals, one a bonafide SHOP manual..and between the two of them AND the multiple supplements for different years...not a single spec list was correct, the pinouts IN the connector were wrong..and the wire color? Ha! Forget it!! Not even close.

Do you have access to a known good VR off another KDX?

Still don't know if this is an 'E' or an 'H'...or...what?


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Post by 2001kdx »

If memory seves he's on a 220!
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Post by DMrides220 »

With the reg plugged in I get 8.6v I'm not sure if it is wired correctly because the instructions say one wire gets hooked to the frame for a ground but the original reg. both wires hook to the plug. I am assuming one of those wires goes to a ground, just not sure which one.

Yes, no reading on the old one and something on the new one. Figured something was better than nothing.

I know what the wires are on the new reg. just not sure about the old reg. I am using the connector from the original one.

Does 8.6v sound right at the reg. with a slightly high idle.

Should I have 6v at the headlight socket with the switch off.

My multi meter is also very old and basic. We have a nice one at work that beeps and all that fancy stuff like you say. I will get that tomorrow and do some more testing this weekend.

E or H? Dunno, 2001 220 whatever that is. Oh yea I do have a 2001 200 in my garage with a working light!

And now that I think back I believe this all started after a very very wet ride. Is it possible that some water got inside the generator cover and could be causing all of this?
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Post by canyncarvr »

With the reg plugged in I get 8.6v I'm not sure if it is wired correctly because the instructions say one wire gets hooked to the frame for a ground but the original reg. both wires hook to the plug. I am assuming one of those wires goes to a ground, just not sure which one.

Yes, no reading on the old one and something on the new one. Figured something was better than nothing.

I know what the wires are on the new reg. just not sure about the old reg. I am using the connector from the original one.

Does 8.6v sound right at the reg. with a slightly high idle.

++Doesn't sound real good...but I wouldn't wonder about it if it went UP with RPM.


Should I have 6v at the headlight socket with the switch off.

++No. IF the headlight switch is good (it may 'leak some)..you should have nada at the headlight with the switch off.

My multi meter is also very old and basic. We have a nice one at work that beeps and all that fancy stuff like you say. I will get that tomorrow and do some more testing this weekend.

E or H? Dunno, 2001 220 whatever that is. Oh yea I do have a 2001 200 in my garage with a working light!

++ 'H'. Uh...why not switch the working reg in and see if it works? I wouldn't expect it to from the sounds of other things going on. Maybe.


And now that I think back I believe this all started after a very very wet ride. Is it possible that some water got inside the generator cover and could be causing all of this?

++Yes. The lighting coil is behind the flywheel. On end of it goes to the light switch..the other end is screwed to the engine case. Either connection may be an issue.

Nothing there is going to put voltage on your light when the switch is off.

If you unPLUG the swtich output (or switch input for that matter)...I don't suppose you still get a voltage at the light?

Again...all bets are off if the grounds are bad. You are measuring these voltages with the meter ground connected to....what?

Two things...connected to a GOOD frame ground...and the wiring grounds are not good to the frame...OR...connected to a POOR ground..you'll get all sorts of weird volts bouncing around. Probably no CURRENT behind 'em...but you would be looking at a 'floater'.

You will need a flywheel puller to get to the lighting coil...and if you don't have an impact to run it (are using hand tools), you will need to jam up the drivetrain somewhere to keep the thing from slipping. Some use a chunk of hickory on the rear wheel...they make strap wrenches for holding the flywheel...

Oh...the flywheel has LHT! You don't wanna be buying a new one, trust me!


...Don't drop it! :sad:

Well..you prolly know all that.

An ounce of prevention and all that........

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Post by DMrides220 »

I just unplugged all three wires coming out of the left side of the engine, Yellow, Black, and white/red

I hooked my tester to a bolt for a ground and tested all of those wires.

Yellow wire has continuity and it seems to me like it should not. Which is correct?

Black wire has continuity. Seems right, as I believe it is the ground.

White/red wire, not sure what it is but no continuity.

My lighting coil tested at 2.6ohms. Slightly over spec but my meter is not great.

I must be getting closer, or at least learning what all those wires are for.
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Post by canyncarvr »

White/red is for the CDI.


Yellow is the lighting coil. The yellow wire should go directly to the light switch..nowhere else.

The use of the term 'continuity' is confusing. Does that mean an electrical short?

Yellow should not have 'continuity' (short?) to ground. I'm assuming you are not measuring through the light switch..and thus the bulb filaments?

Similar to car wiring...you will read pretty much a short everywhere if lamps are in the circuit. Between relays, solenoids and lamps, all vehicle (car) wiring is pretty much one big short. You have to isolate the wiring if that's where you're looking for trouble.

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Post by DMrides220 »

When I have my meter set on ohms and hook one wire on my meter to a bolt on the bike and the other wire directly to the yellow wire coming off of the lighting coil I get a reading.

Note: All wires coming from magneto cover are unplugged while doing this. Yellow, Black, and White/red.

So yes I believe this to be a short some where under the mag. cover. But I have no idea if it is supposed to be this way.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Have some patience, M'K? :neutral:

I'm having a hard time following you a good lot of the time. That leads to my picking at the same thing over and over until I get it. I'm not busting your chops or bitchin' at you..just trying to get a handle on what's going on.

You said:
'My lighting coil tested at 2.6ohms. Slightly over spec but my meter is not great.'

OK. Simple enough. You tested the coil (under the mag cover) to get that reading.

But, you also said:
'When I have my meter set on ohms and hook one wire on my meter to a bolt on the bike and the other wire directly to the yellow wire coming off of the lighting coil I get a reading'

And that led to you thinking there is a short under the cover...where the lighting coil is that you just measured.

:hmm:

That's the same thing you said in the first part. If you indeed hooked the meter TO the wire coming OFF the lighting coil, you measured the coil resistance to ground just as you indicated in the first 'You said:'.

'Coming off' means (to me) it's coming FROM...that it's ATTACHED to the coil...not that the wire itself is 'off'. Now...maybe the meaning is..you hooked the meter to the yellow wire that is NORMALLY attached to the wire coming from the coil..the lighting coil being disconnected for test purposes (you said everything was disconnected). But, a 'reading' (that's like 'continuity'..does it mean short ..zero ohms...or maybe 57ohms...or something else?) in that state of things wouldn't have anything to DO with a 'short under the mag cover'.

:blink:

..and you didn't mention the switch OR the lamp state (plugged in/not).

1. Disconnect the lighting coil at the molex between the coil and the light switch. Measure from a good frame ground to the coil side of the wiring. A few ohms (continuity..a reading even! :wink: ) is correct.

2. Measure from that good frame ground to the other side of the connector..the wire going TO the switch. Switch should be OFF. You should read NOTHING..open...infinity...no ohms...no matter what scale.

If you do get a reading..something isn't right.

3. Connecting the meter the same as #2 with the switch ON, you will get a reading, continuity...darn near a short, as you will be 'seeing' the headlight (assuming the headlight IS connected..and the bulb is good).

To be fair...I'm explaining what I KNOW to be so..but I've never looked at my bike. And...I've 'known' things in error before.

I'll look at my bike tonight..take the measurements listed above (1,2,3) to verify the whole mess.


Another thing to keep revisiting until it's done...the state of, condition of the bike lighting system grounds. To be learning anything, you should verify that the meter readings you get don't differ when connected to that 'good frame ground' from when connected to a system ground that is supposed to be a 'good frame ground'.

The two can possibly NOT be the same. If they are not the same? That's a problem.


This is pretty much a whole lott'a fun, 'eh?

Cheers!

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Post by canyncarvr »

Yep. It's all true.

If you get any reading, (continuity or short??) from the yellow wire out of the magneto, on the harness side TO gnd with the lights off other than wide open..there's a problem.

A BTW...but my Electrex light coil shows about .6ohms.

Again...check it all one segment at a time.

Yellow (harness side) TO the switch (switch off)...open.

FROM the switch (light/VR side) to ground, you will see pretty close to a dead short (filament resistance) through the lights.

Git this thing fixed already!!! :wink:

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Post by DMrides220 »

I tested my lighting coil with a different meter and got 2ohms, my manual says 1.6-2.4 is good.

I have unplugged the black and yellow wires at the connectors right by the air box and from the yellow wire that goes to the coil to any bolt I get 12ohms.

By the way CC I really appreciate all of your help and patience.

I have not had the cover off yet because I don't have a flywheel puller but it looks like I might need one.
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