Damaged Cylinder, What Are Some Options?

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Damaged Cylinder, What Are Some Options?

Post by KDXGarage »

I finally got around to tearing down my top end for KIPS cleaning and general inspection on my '94 KDX200. Unfortunately, I found that the piston is scratched. Also, it appears that the cylinder has had a steel sleeve installed by a previous owner (I bought it used), and it has a tiny crack across an intake port bridge / support.

I have been thinking about what my options are at this point. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.

I THINK it has a steel sleeve in it. A little magnet sticks to the inside, and I think that means it has a steel sleeve. Is that correct?

Since it already has a steel sleeve, as best I understand it, it can not be just replated. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure on that one.

I am thinking:

1. Send it to Eric Gorr, let him check it out, then wait to see what he says. His site says $40 for bore / hone and chamfer the ports. If that would fix it, then I can get a proper sized piston kit.

2. Roll the dice and buy a used cylinder and hope it is useable, then buy a piston kit. If it is not useable, then it might be able to be replated. After it is replated, buy a piston kit.

3. Buy a new cylinder from ronayers.com for $392 shipped, plus piston kit.

Again, if anyone has any ideas or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks.
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Post by Indawoods »

Well Jason... you BEST bet is a new one. Like you said...you take a chance on a used cylinder and it may need to be plated... now your back up to the cost of a new one..or more! I don't like sleeved cylinders because they wear much faster and produce more heat.
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Post by bradf »

Jason, I am in the same boat as you right now. The Kawi warranty Dept will be recieving the cylinder on Monday. I may be looking at a the exact same options. Remember that RB does cylinder work as well.
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Post by m0rie »

Jason - If you've got access to a digital camera take some pics and post them in your gallery. I think if you can find a used cylinder on ebay for under $40 its worth getting it and see if it would work.

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Post by skipro3 »

If RB Designs does this work, then that would be my first suggestion: Send it to him and get his take on the situation. It might cost a couple bucks to send it off, but if he can help, you KNOW it will be right. Eric Gorr has a solid reputation but he also has had problems getting things turned around occasionally.
Your bike was running fine before you tore it down? Maybe it's time to think about a new ('95 and up) model. Slap it back together, and sell it as is, then buy something newer.
Of course, keep your eye out on ebay. Every once in a while those things pop up or even a whole motor or bike you can part out. All depends on how much time you want to mess with this and exactly where you want to be with this bike when you are finished.

It must have been tough to open that bike up and discover the old gal had a sleeve in there, and then cracked at that. I don't know much about sleeving other than the bike typicaly runs hotter due to the transferance of heat across the dissimilar metals. Even if resleeving is the cheapest option to gettng it right again, I would try my best to avoid that unless planning on getting rid of it anyway. An iron sleeve is going to wear much quicker and require different break-in, etc. than a plated cylinder.

Good luck and keep up the progress reports as you get this solved.
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Post by canyncarvr »

You can generally tell if a cylinder has been sleeved just by looking at it. On the top (head) surface you will be able to see a 'ring' where the two metals meet. Some bikes (don't know about older KDXs) have sleeves all the time.

Cylinders can be resleeved. If the old sleeve can't be removed, it can be bored out.

As I understand it, steel cylinders aren't plated in the first place, so you wouldn't RE-plate it. Also, the heat required to replate wouldn't 'fit' well with the sleeve. Something is going to go wrong with the different expansion rates of the aluminum cylinder and the steel sleeve.

I don't have personal experience with ForwardMotion, but EG by all accounts is a good guy...he has the knowledge that would make a 'fix' of your cylinder more likely to stay that way. Things like cracks on port bridges are things he takes care of so it doesn't happen again.

brad: The Kawi department will be receiving your head? They wanted both the cylinder AND the head? What does the head have to do with plate peeling?

**edit** started before but posted after Ski's post... I keep forgetting about Ron's cylinder work. I'd certainly include him on my 'list of folks' when it comes to 'people that know stuff.'
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Post by dave04kdx »

Hi Jason

It's me Dave.

Remember our email from a while back about the sleeve I put in my 86? I got the 240 big bore kit from LA Sleeve. It worked well but didnt hold up for long. After 100 hours or so the cylinder had a huge ridge and needed to be rebored. My 88 is still in the family and still running on the original cylinder plating. If I remember right they bored the cylinder on my 86 around .100 to accept the sleeve. The 86 ran hotter than with the plated cylinder. I would never use one again. IMO plating is the only way to go, even with the extra cost.
Sorry to hear about the cylinder :sad:

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Post by KDXGarage »

bradf, skipro3: Thanks for the reminder of RB Designs.

m0rie: That is a good idea. I will post a few pics later today.

skipro3: As best I could tell, it was running fine before I tore it down. I actually have not ridden it since last July. That is due to other maintenance / having a second bike to ride / being lazy. I bought the bike in July of 2002 with only 258 miles on it. It honestly looked about 2 months old. It now has about 750 miles on it. Pretty much everything on the bike is in very good shape, so the price difference between getting this one back in good shape vs. buying a slightly used H model in this good of condition (cylinder / piston excluded) would be leaning toward just fix this one. Yes, it was tough to see the piston in that shape, then the little magnet stick to the side, then see a little crack. :neutral:

canyncarvr: "Cylinders can be resleeved. If the old sleeve can't be removed, it can be bored out." I am hoping it does not come to that, but I thought that might be something Eric Gorr might tell me is what is needed. It is an aluminum cylinder with a steel (I think it's steel, not iron) liner. For what its worth, I think just about every single KDX has a plated cylinder. I had a 1981 KDX250 manual, and it had the standard "the Kawasaki Electrofusion coating can not be bored or honed" warning.

Dave: Maybe the liquid cooling allows my bike to apparently run OK. To the best of my knowledge, I have not had any overheat problems. I hear ya on going with plating. I know that it is the best solution, but also the more expensive route.

To All: If you buy a bike, used or new, you may want to take the time to check out some things such as tearing down the top end for inspection. I stripped this bike to the frame about a month after I got it for the clean / grease / touch-up paint the frame routine. I didn't take apart the forks / shock / wheels / top end or bottom end. I just set them to the side. Though I know my top end is damaged, I would like to know what condition it was in when I bought it.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. If anyone else has an idea, please post it.
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Post by canyncarvr »

re: magnet

Nikasil is a nickel (metal) and silicon carbide (glass) matrix coating. Pardon my ignorance.....but considering:
Ryan Thompson, , Materials Science, Chemical Engineering, Unisys Corporation wrote: Nickel is one of the few elements that produce a magnetic field; others
are iron, cobalt, and some of the rare earth metals, gadolinium,
neodymium, etc.
..does that mean that an aluminum cylinder coated with Nikasil will attract a magnet?

Uh....what about ring deposits? Would that explain magnet stickage?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

BTW...yes, I understand that 'electrofusion' isn't synonymous with Nikasil. I'd bet that most coatings would have a nickel content, though.

**edit**
Took awhile...but answered my own question:
Kelly Snyder and Peter Russell wrote:Nickel is ferromagnetic, that is, it is attracted to a permanent magnet. It takes a high polish, and does not easily tarnish or rust.
...and maybe answered a question for you, Jason? What you are likely looking at (considering the bike's history) is a plated cylinder...period.
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Post by KDXGarage »

In my research, I found a link by wibby (Thanks, wibby!) to a page on Eric Gorr's site with information about the platings.

http://ericgorr.com/techarticles/twotopweb.html

He says, "You can check a cylinder with a magnet. If it sticks to the bore then it is a sleeve. If it doesn't stick then it is plated."

On my cylinder, I tested in several locations, including the top edge of the cylinder (that little ring of no wear where the piston rings don't go that high). It would stick and try to tip over into the cylinder.
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Post by Mr. Wibbens »

Jason wrote:In my research, I found a link by wibby (Thanks, wibby!)
Imagine that!

Hey check my gallery for some pics of a sleeved cylinder
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Post by m0rie »

Mr. Wibbens wrote:Hey check my gallery for some pics of a sleeved cylinder
Wowzers! Is that from your KDX?

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Post by Mr. Wibbens »

Nope, an ebay purchase
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Post by dave04kdx »

I also remember being able to clearly see the sleeve when it was pressed in the cylinder. Even after use the materials were different colors.
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Post by Mr. Wibbens »

I guess it had a little more than 258 miles on it :twisted:
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Post by KDXGarage »

So why bring me into it?
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Post by canyncarvr »

Mr. Gorr wrote: You can check a cylinder with a magnet. If it sticks to the bore then it is a sleeve. If it doesn't stick then it is plated.



Sorry folks. Being known in the past to always be right about stuff...here I am again!!! :roll:

I took a magnet (a stick-to-ferrous thingy on the end of a telescoping mirror..used to..well, pick up stuff) to the local yamahama shop. On their counter was a YZ250 Nikasil coated cylinder just off a bike. My magnet stuck to the inside of the bore of that cylinder.

'Aha!', you say! 'You were feeling the head studs, 'ya maroon.' Alas...no. Another cylinder that had just come back from being replated...no studs in it...no ring had ever touched it....no sleeve (duh)... was tested. Same attraction. On both cylinders the magnet stuck to the bottom-inside of the cylinder, too. So much for the studs being the issue.

Unless Mr. Gorr's meaning of 'magnets don't stick to coated cylinders' applies to the OUTside of the cylinder..a long way away from the plating itself...he is not correct. Of course...that would also apply to a sleeved cylinder...so, I doubt that's what he meant.

Well...unless my magnet is special? :shock:

There were two other guys at the counter...one of them actually on the EG site reading the same thing. General agreement (meaning everyone there agreed with me!) was that a magnet does indeed stick to a cylinder that is coated with a nickel composite material, Nikasil in particular.

One more time: Jason- It is unrealistic that a bike with 258 miles on it would be sleeved. As already stated a couple of times, you can easily see where the sleeve and cylinder meet. You can see it in the port edges, the top (head) surface and less likely the bottom of the cylinder.

Nickel is can be magnetized and is attracted to a magnet. I don't know how that relates to Kawi's electrofusion.

Anyone want a ginsu knife? :grin:
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Post by KDXGarage »

I can VERY easily see the sleeve in wibby's pictures in his gallery. Mine surely does not look like that. I can see a definite difference in his pictures.

I have a spare 1987 cylinder that looks about the same as my '94 cylinder. I don't remember it looking like the cylinder in wibby's photos.

Let me find a non-dead set of batteries and try again on the photos.

Thanks.
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Post by KDXGarage »

OK, I have some pictures in my Gallery. The first 9 pictures are the cylinder. On page 2, the fist picture (picture 10) is the head, just in case anyone wants to see.

I have used Kawasaki 2-stroke mixed at 32:1 with 92 octane gas the whole 500 miles I put on it.

I will check my spare '87 cylinder and see if it looks the same.

EDIT: My spare '87 looks pretty much the same as my '94 cylinder. On the very bottom of the '87 cylinder, there are two protrusions about 14mm or so long. It does not come to a 90 degree angle from the inside of the cylinder to the bottom edge of the cylinder. It has the cylinder surface, then a 45 degree surface, then a flat surface on the bottom. The magnet sticks to the angled part.
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Post by canyncarvr »

What's the question? It doesn't look sleeved to me. The pictures are kind'a fuzzy.

Look at the bottom of the cylinder where the skirts meet the base. Looks all shiny..all the same.

Looking at the ports, all of them look to have the little plating edge that is common, but not the sort of edge/thickness you see on Wibby's cylinder (that certainly looks like it is sleeved).

Then it's the couple hundred miles thing.

If you're basing all of this 'It's sleeved' idea on the magnet issue...that info is not correct.

Can you post a pic of the crack you're talking about?

ScothBrite it. Put a piston in it!! Run it!!
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