Needle/Slide/Clip help

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2001kdx
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Needle/Slide/Clip help

Post by 2001kdx »

I have my carb apart and I can"t figure out how to expose the clip to change the needle position. please help a newbie out and tell me how to get that thing out to adjust it! Also, should i go higher ot lower to test out?
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Post by radonc73 »

You need a 6mm I think socket just unscrew where the cable went in and carefully turn it upside down as to not lose anything. The needle should slide out. Lowering the needle lets less gas into the carb.
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Post by thebleakness »

Make sure its not a 12 sided 6mm socket, 12 will cut up the outside of the cable holder. It took me a long time to figure out how to get that needle out, surprisingly I couldn't find the information written down anywhere on the net (didnt look that hard though...). I eventually found it out myself.

Watch out for those e-clips. I was building an RC car a few years ago and somehow (dont ask me how) I managed to hook that e-clip into my forefinger. I ended up having to have it cut out, got myself 1 stitch for that. :rolleyes: :lol:
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Post by Mr. Wibbens »

Still never had a problem with 12 point sockets here :?


Good info on all thats needed here http://justkdx.dirtrider.net
Look under tech tips / carb tuning
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Post by 2001kdx »

All done, thanks guys. Raised the clip, liked it and raised it again. Much snappier.
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Post by canyncarvr »

FTR..the terms 'raise the clip' and 'raised the needle' are often used interchangeably.

The two are opposite adjustments.

A dose of anti-seize on reassembly will keep the needle nut from sticking...next time.

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Post by 2001kdx »

Oh yeah, she's all anti-seized up. I in fact lowered the needle, but raised the clip.
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Post by canyncarvr »

So...what clip number are you on now?

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Post by 2001kdx »

The clip is in the first groove from the top. Tested it out a few hours ago in the snow and ice and I like it. Jeb may be sending me his CEL/DEL needles, so I can have some fun fiddling with those.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Re: 'So...what clip number are you on now?'

..and the clip NUMBER is..... what?

It is a specific question for a specific purpose asked for a specific reason.

You are familiar with needle configuration and, say, what the differences are between the needles you listed and the one in your bike now?
Last edited by canyncarvr on 02:25 pm Feb 24 2007, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mr. Wibbens »

and that specifically is?

BTW, I believe he said he's in the first groove from the top. :lol:
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Post by 2001kdx »

CC, this is not hard to figure out! I have one clip, which really is not enough clips to where I would have to number them. It is in POSITION # 1.

Stop interrogating me :sad:
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Post by canyncarvr »

As per usual...the point was completely missed.

I'm not interrogating anyone, merely asking simple questions.

Funny how English being used as the language for communication in this instance it is generally impossible for most to understand. The responses to the question show once again that understanding is on the endandgered species list. Nothing new there.

I've been riding bikes for over 35 years..and my KDX for close to eight. That is not to say I am particularly knowledgeable about anything...but I've seen a whole lot of the same things over...and over...and over.

Without an understanding of clip positions (not the number of clips 'fer crine out loud) a person reading this post may well be completely backwards on what they think they are being told. And I've seen that literally dozens of times.

The purpose of the question was not to run anyone through an inquisition but to provide the reader above with correct information.

As recently as a week or two back the whole subject (needle clips) was completely mangled, was convoluted and backwards. Information posted was exactly opposite of the facts.

Clip positions are indeed numbered from the top of the clip..and the top of the clip is the clip end...NOT the pointed end. Simple, right? Then why do riders have it wrong so much of the time?

Image

As far as 'I have one clip!'..that ignores the fact that the phrase 'clip -3' used regularly to describe clip postion obviously has nothing to do with the number of clips, but the third clip position.

A hint: Unless feigning obtusity (sic) or being difficult simply for the purpose of being difficult..answer the cottonpickin' question!

Having asked: ''So...what clip number are you on now?'

The answer is '#1.'

When describing jetting situations it is much simpler to say 'clip -3' than it is to say 'clip (only one of them!) in the third slot from the blunt end of the needle (where the clip slots are).'

2001: Please consider that what you do understand is not universally understood..not everyone else knows what you do. Presumption and assumption lead only to confusion..irrevocably, irretrievably and most certain. That I know what my reason was for asking the question and you did not is no reason to not answer the question. Just hang on for a bit and just maybe there will be something to learn discovered.

5/5? As Baudot might have said?


Just for fun I'd like to hear your defintion of the L1 measurement on a needle...


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Post by 2001kdx »

Thanks for clarifying cc. Not just for me, but for all who seek understanding on this site.

About the L1 measurements... I haven't a clue.
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Post by canyncarvr »

L1 is worse than the understanding of clip postion numbering.

It is commonly said that L1 is the measurement of the 'straight section' of the needle.

That it wrong.

It's incorrect, too.

L1 is the distance measured from the clip (blunt :wink: ) end of the needle to the place on the needle that the diameter is 2.515mm. The L1 does indeed include part of the needle that is NOT straight.

If you wanna...put on your thinking cap and tell me why that is so important and why it matters. I think it's the key to understanding how needles work. It was for me, anyway.

Hiint: slope

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Post by 2001kdx »

Hmm... The steeper the slope, the leaner it is? Or richer? eh, Who cares.

No, let's get this figured out here, and now.
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Post by canyncarvr »

You're familiar with different slopes of needles I suppose. A 'C' slope is steeper (greater º) than a 'B' which is greater than an 'A' etc. The difference is 15' or minutes of a degree between each 'alpha' (60' in one º). That is not of particular import but to realize the slope change is not huge..1/4º per letter.

Consider two needles with the same L1 but with different slopes. The sharper the taper angle, the later the taper starts on a given needle. If the two needles are an 'A' and a 'D', the truly straight section of the 'D' needle is considerably longer than is the 'A'. Because the slope of the 'A' is less, the taper has to start earlier (sooner, farther up, closer to the clips slots) on the needle in order to arrive at the 2.515mm diameter (referred to as the 'magic number') in the same distance (L1) the 'D' needle has.

Diameters are the same sort of thing. Given the same situation (only one thing different between two needles..the diameter) a needle with a larger (leaner) diameter is going to have to have an earlier start than a lesser diameter..for the same reason.

Take my personal opinion as a point of discussion. A CEK needle is favored by a number of modified carb users. I don't care for it much. It's a lot of fun, but for realistic riding that requires some traction and some semblance of throttle control I prefer a DEK. The difference in 'real life' between the two? The CEK taper hits the jet block SOONER because it is higher on the needle. That 'sooner' translates into wheel spin with poor traction and the front end in the air with good traction. Neither of those conditions is conducive to trail riding....well staying on the trail riding anyway.

The DEK on the other hand hits the jet block LATER (because the taper start is LOWER on the needle). Having the truly straight part of the needle in the needle jet longer translates into better traction over more throttle pull. By the time the taper hits and the bike starts to make power you are likely going to be moving faster (remember it's a matter of throttle position..NOT speed or RPM) so loss of traction will be less likely. So will lofting the front-end for the same reason.

Trying both (usually a CEL/DEL in an unmodified #5 slide carb) is interesting. The 'C' needle will likely wear you out just from having to hang on!

Knowing what a needle does when is important when it comes to choosing a needle that suits you, that fits your riding style and environment.

One more example. A thinner diameter needle will be richer low in the throttle range but there will be a place it will be more lean comparatively than a thicker diameter needle. That spot is going to be due to the later taper start (yeah..thinner needle but for more time throttle-wise.. at a time when more AIR is coming into the carb).

Neat, huh? :supz:

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Post by 2001kdx »

Yeah man, it's far out :lol:

I really can't wait to get that CEL in there, kinda hard to imagine my little kdx making me tired from holding on.

To be clear, neither of these needles will make the bike straight-line faster than the stock needle, right? Just snappier?
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Post by canyncarvr »

'Faster' is a sum of all the parts. It won't make WOT any different, but if from getting to off-idle TO WOT there is more control, power better applied (or less in either case) an engine could indeed seem faster.

More anecdotal junk...

With a Dynatek ignition (four selectable ignition curves) on my Banshee I got beat in a drag race with a piped Suzuki 450 quadracer..a length one time, two lengths the second time. Both on curve #1.

The next two times, HE was behind me. Both of those on curve #2. Maybe he messed up both times..I don't know. I DO know I wasn't behind him at the end.

Timing and jetting are not the same, but changes to either can effect overall 'response' of an engine...again, an additive process of throttle ranges and the carb circuits that effect those ranges.

Your term 'straight line' could infer WOT ops in a drag race situation. Needles don't do that. They are responsible for your bike's 'personality' most everywhere else exCEPT WOT.

I wouldn't suppose you spend a whole lot of time doing that.....not if you have a KDX because it fits how you ride.

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Post by Jeb »

>|<>QBB<
2001kdx wrote:Yeah man, it's far out :lol:

I really can't wait to get that CEL in there, kinda hard to imagine my little kdx making me tired from holding on.

To be clear, neither of these needles will make the bike straight-line faster than the stock needle, right? Just snappier?
Tired from holding on? It's probably not going to be quite like that, but the difference is very noticeable. And a bunch of fun. Then again, I got the 220 so the 200 may be a little different . . .

You'll wanna' get the main and pilot jets jetted correctly (as in WOT) - if you haven't already - for maximum impact before you start "needling". Try BOTH needles (CEL/DEL), and for each needle give a couple of different clip positions a try.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the finer points of needles (in fact, jetting in general) as others, but I'll tell you that them' slopes on the CEL/DEL will indeed make a difference!!
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