Cylinder is toast

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bradf
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Cylinder is toast

Post by bradf »

Just a couple hours ago I took the cylinder off for the "ol 220 piston replacement therapy". I had just shipped the head to Ron. Inside the cylinder I saw enough to make me cringe. There were three places scattered around the wall where severe wear had occurred. Enough wear that could be felt. Other places you could see but not feel. There were absolutely no marks on the piston. I jumped in the car and hurried off to the dealer. The piston is way too loose in the cylinder according to the meachanic. He suspects parts of the cylinder flaked loose to make the marks. The warranty is up in April so he will call Kawi in the morning. Luckily for me I decided to replace the piston now rather than AFTER the warranty. So now I wait.
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Post by skipro3 »

Glad to hear you caught it in time Brad. That could have been expensive if parts started to trash the crank. Did you take the whole engine in? If warranty then I would ask them to check the lower end of things too. Complementry of course since it is under warranty.

How was the bike runnning up to this point?
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Post by bradf »

I just took the cylinder and piston in. It was running fine last time I rode it. I was going to put off changing the piston until after the warranty so that if it exploded Kawi would have to do it. I have seen seized cylinder walls, this isn't one of them. I have seen severe foreign object damage, this isn't one. It really does look like something was scratched between the rings and the wall. I don't understand why the cylinder is so loose though. There is still mostly very good hone marks left. I know the break-in was done by me but I don't know what was done before I got it as it came off the showroom floor. I might as well take in the whole thing and have them check the rod wrist pin hole, rod play etc.
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Post by bradf »

The cylinder, piston and rings are on their way to Kawasaki land today. The cylinder was .002 to .006 out of specs towards the bottom. The dealer told me to bring it all in (wiseco piston included) and they will put it all back together for me (if/when) Kawi sends them a new cylinder. I told them I would rather have RB put a sleeve in this one for less than what a new cylinder would cost but Kawi don't see it that way. Sorry Ron. I really don't like this Nikasil plating at all. The mechanic asked me if I saw in the owners manual where it says to run it for 20 minutes then tear the top end down to inspect for damage. We got a chuckle over that. I talked to Jeff at FRP today and he too says that virtually every cylinder he has owned has these scratches due to what he seriously said was sand at the dirty assembly area at the factory. The scratches themselves were not too serious but the outta spec cylinder was a show stopper. Ron also told me he has seen this and that as I know now, Kawi has serious cylinder issues. Well this will be the LAST time a Nikasil goes on my machine. I figger Ron will be getting it next winter for the sleeve. By the way, I got my head back from RB today. I fondled it until the dealer made me hand it over with all the other parts. I also showed the mechanic the RB modified carb. It really got his attention. He wants to ride my bike when it gets put back together so I said sure. He was looking at the RB web site when I left.
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Post by Indawoods »

Brad,
What is wrong with the Nikasil plating? I love it... it makes the cylinders last at least 5 times as long between rebuilds if done right. It is down right tough as nails stuff. If it chips... it is not the fault of the plating but rather everything else on the manufactured parts. I'd be willing to bet if you chafered the ports on the cylinder and had it plated, put the proper size piston and rings in... you'd be a believer! Just my .02 of course.
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Post by bradf »

This is the first time I have dealt with plating. I researched it today and I saw that it really matters who does the job. Maybe you're right and the whole issue could be resolved by a little port grinding and clean up. No more flakes. Now I have a question for all you Nikasil heads: Tell me what break-in procedure has proven best for you. I know what works great for a steel cylinder. Maybe there is a difference.
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Post by Indawoods »

Break In Procedures

1) Start your engine and let idle occasionally blipping the throttle for four to five minutes. Allow the engine to cool completely. Repeat this "heat cycle" process four more times.

2) Warm up the engine again and ride the bike for five to seven minutes at a very easy pace, vary the rpm, don’t ride at one speed. Don’t ride at more than 1/3 throttle or more than 1/3 rpm. Let the engine cool down completely and repeat the initial break in ride. Let the engine cool down.

3) Check the base nuts and head nuts for proper torque, check the coolant level and add coolant as necessary.

4) Ride the bike for five to ten minutes at a moderate pace, vary the rpm, don’t ride at more than 3/4 throttle or more than 3/4 rpm. Let the engine cool completely and repeat this secondary break in twice more.

5) Replace the spark plug with a new one. Ride the bike for five to eight minutes at a moderate pace, vary the rpm and shift up and down the gears. Once the engine is up to operating temperature you can make a jetting pass. Start in second gear and ride at full throttle through fourth gear, fully revving out fourth gear. With the throttle wide open in fourth hold the kill button down, pull in the clutch and stop. This is called a "plug chop"

6) Read the spark plug. With a pocket flashlight and a magnifying glass look at the porcelain part of the plug only, as you view the plug from the center electrode look down the length of the porcelain to its base, at this point there should be a dark chocolate colored smoke ring. There was not sufficient time to thoroughly color the whole plug, so the nose of the insulator may still be white, as long as there is a visible dark ring at the base everything is OK. Remember we want break in jetting so the plug should read rich/dark. Richen the jetting as necessary. If your having a hard time reading the spark plug, after the jet pass put the plug in a vice and hacksaw around the plug at the washer. Break the threads off with vise-grips, and the porcelain will be easy to read.

7) Complete the break in by riding at an aggressive pace for fifteen minutes, vary the rpm and don’t cruise at part throttle, ride hard without revving the engine too high. At the end of this final break in session do another jetting pass/plug chop as described above. Check the spark plug for the correct dark/rich condition. Wiseco Piston equipped engines will require another one or two break in cycles, ride at a recreational pace not revving the engine hard, full throttle should only be used for very short periods, fifth and sixth gear should only be used to cruise, ride one tank of gas through the engine in this manner to complete the break in. I feel it take about two gallons of gas to break in a motor equipped with a cast piston and five gallons for a motor equipped with a Wiseco.

8) Replace the spark plug with a new one, ride the bike aggressively for eight minutes and do a jetting pass/ plug chop in fifth gear. If the porcelain color is still dark/rich, lean the main jet size one at a time until the smoke ring at the base of the porcelain is a light brown. If the porcelain base is white, don’t run the engine until you richen the main. If the plug color looks good, continue riding at a race pace for ten minutes. Stop and let the engine cool. Check the torque on the cylinder base and head nuts.



I'd never do the "Ride it like you stole it" break in... thinking about it just makes me cringe! :shock:
Last edited by Indawoods on 07:50 am Mar 02 2005, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by bradf »

My prcedure is like pretty much like yours. No more than 1/2 throttle at first run 10 minutes...totally cool down...no more than 3/4 second run 10 minutes...totally cool down...Then a final good few full throttle runs through the gears. I had the opportunity to be on a Ferarri race team in 95 and learned this from them. The heavy load of the last run creates pressure behind the rings to seat them properly. One way to determine if it was done right is that there should be no blow-by on the side of the piston when it is removed. Mine was perfectly clean on my 220.
Question on the port clean up: Can you use a dremmel and lightly touch it up as long as the port is not changed or is that too aggresive? Ski suggested emery cloth.
Last edited by bradf on 12:22 am Mar 02 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Indawoods »

Yes you can use a dremel... just use a soft stone or emery wheel and go lightly. You must have a soft touch though.
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Post by Indawoods »

A newly rebuilt motor will cause a lot more heat that a broke in motor and something that you should watch for. If it is getting hot...shut it down and let it cool completely before proceding.
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Post by KDXGarage »

Kawasaki uses Electrofusion, for the record. There are a few different kinds of plating (Nikasil, Elnisil, electrofusion or chrome plating, for example). I have read that the plated cylinders last a lot longer than steel cylinders. They must be better if pretty much all cylinders in the last 15 years or so are plated. I think about all the KDX cylinders are plated.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.
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Post by bradf »

I'll look into electrofusion. Can these cylinders be re-honed with a ball hone?
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Post by Indawoods »

One pass only. They only need a quick cleanup pass if needed is what I'm told. Otherwise you may chip the coating around the ports... and as you know, this is not what you want. Actually what is suggested is to use a scotch-brite pad.
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Post by bradf »

OK, I am smarter now. I did the research. Plating is 5X as hard as steel so it will last much longer, transfers heat better, and enables the builders to have closer tolerances. All good stuff. Now I have the opportunity to ensure that this cylinder gets proper prep and CLEANING before it sees the Wiseco piston. I am sure I will be a crappy hamper...uh, I mean happy camper in the very near future. So for now I am back on the ol XR250. Woo frickity hooo :mad:
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Post by KDXGarage »

Ha ha. :grin: Well, maybe the XR250 is better than nothing.

The Kawasaki manuals say no boring or honing.

If you send it to a plater, I don't think it will be Electrofusion. It will be Nikasil or NiCom or whatever. I have read somewhere that it was better than Electrofusion anyway.

There are a few different places to get it plated. I know US Chrome is one place, but there are others. There is one place in Auburn, AL (Waaaaaaar Eagle!) that is a plating company. As with anything, Google away for more info. :cool:
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Post by fuzzy »

I like this break-in method. There are definitely two schools of though to this, and LOTS of opinions. I daringly tried this method the first time. After a post-breakin inspections I was sold...Have since used it on both 2 and 4 cycle motors. Especially note the comment on ring seal. I can feel the power difference between the two methods in my Kart engines (17k RPM + Methanol = rebuilt often) :lol:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

This explains a question I've always had about "how can a racer hit the track w/ a fresh piston/ring" This guy answered it....During the practice session is where the engine gets broken in...
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Post by KDXGarage »

I saw nothing on the site that mentions 2 stroke engines. I will have to pass on getting my break-in information from a site that has the following as part of its website:

"This Banner Leads To 100's of Other Cool Superbikes & Babes Sites !!" :lol:

I see extremely little scientific information in his many "reasons". It may or may not be a good method, but his reasoning and method of delivering information is not too impressive to me.
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Post by bradf »

There is a lot of similarities to the guy Fuzzy talks about and what Ferarri told me. The high pressure behind the rings is crucial. The only way to obtain the high pressure is with hard acceleration pulls. There is also a small window of opportunity to get this done. This window has a lot to do with materials i.e. ring composition and cylinder walls honing pattern. As these are electrofusions or Nikasil I see where there will be some differences. Heat cycles are as necessary as the seating. Ferarri did most of the break-in while the engine is on the dyno. But some engines never saw the dyno and one of the drivers would have meticulous break-in instructions given to him. The on-board computer set up a rev limit just in case he screwed up. In no way is it a get on it and rev the crap out of it like you would race it sort of thing. Inda's technique is real good. It should be a sticky. Any final break-in run without hard acceleration will not produce the pressure to properly seat.
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Post by KDXGarage »

Ferrari? May I ask what your involvement is with Ferrari? Thank you.
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Post by bradf »

Sure you can. I was on the Scandia Ferarri 333SP WSC race team based in Redmond, WA. This was the series that raced the 24 hr Daytona, 12 hr Sebring, LeMans etc. I was usually a rear guy (everything behind cock pit). I was always the outside rear tire changer. I did shock builds on the shock dyno, all the radio crap, and some of the gear box, alot of the carbon fiber/fiberglass/kevlar work mainly cuz it was miserable to work with. The head gear box guy was from Bill Elliot's race team from the 80's and the guy was sharp. The owner of the team was Andy Evans, a local millionaire assh--- that actually bought the Sebring track. I started in 94 when they ran Buick Kudzu's and Spice's left over from the Camel GT series. But in 93 Dan Gurneys team of Toyota's was unbeatable then in 94 the Nissan's of Butch Lietzinger were unbeatable. In our year of 95 we were unbeatable with Fermine Valez, Maro Baldi, and some other wine and cheese types. Except the first race at Daytona the Ferarri's all ate tons of rocks due to a terrible air filtration system Ferarri thought would work. Non of the Ferarri's lasted past 10 AM. K&N's did the trick and we won Sebring and just about all the rest of the races that year. I will put a pic of the car in my gallery tomorrow.
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