Boyesen rad valve -VS- VForce3

KarlP · Post by **KarlP** » 12:04 pm Dec 05 2006

It should (I believe) have a bit of a snap from close to opening as the revs come up. There is a ball detent that engages in the KIPS closed position under the cover that Mike is talking about (left side, sitting on the bike, removable with a giant screwdriver. I use a ground down gasket scraper)
Some people have been known to remove that ball and the spring that pushes it.

canyncarvr · Post by **canyncarvr** » 12:52 pm Dec 05 2006

TWMOODY wrote:Ok tonight I pulled the cover off the KIPS acuator shaft removed the nut and manualy twisted the shaft back and forth.

That's a place to start, but doesn't really tell you anything, which is why CM said what HE said.

TWMOODY wrote:
It seems to have a snap at first then moves slightly easier.

There is a spring loaded detent ball under the main rod (the rod that transverses the cylinder) on the LH side, under the slotted cover already mentioned. That is the most likely spot the 'snap' is coming from.

TWMOODY wrote: I can see the valves open through the exhaust port and the flapper dohickey
in front of the piston move up.

'Valves' meaning the subport drums on either side of the main valve (the flapper part)? It is important not only that they move, but that they are correctly timed. The subports are 'closed' to the cylinder when the KIPS is at rest and 'open' to the cylinder when the KIPS is activated.

TWMOODY wrote:
It does take some effort to twist this shaft when the bike is cold 30 degrees
and I would wonder if under warm conditions it might totally stick.
Should this move free with ZERO effort ?

It will not move with ZERO effort, neither should 'some effort' amount to much of anything. If measured with a spring guage on the nut under that LH cover, I doubt it would amount to more than a few in/lbs. It should return on its own once activated, although that isn't going to be a 'snap' situation. It may be a tad slow, but it should return. Observe the operation as CM mentioned and you should see it work throughout its intended range.

TWMOODY wrote: This is a different design than my 87 and that one moves in and out effortless.

A BTW...but do take note that the nut on top of the activating shaft is LHT! Also, there is a flat on that shaft a couple inches down that you MUST use to support that shaft when you wrench off the LHT nut....and when you put it back on, too. Without that support you WILL damage the centrifigal activating device and very likely cause major damage to other engine parts from the pieces of metal that will be floating around.

Please disregard what's repeated...I see earlier posts that beat me to some of it.

I wouldn't remove the detent. It does have a purpose. It's common to REDUCE the spring pressure (add a second washer on the bolt).

Now the REALLY BTW parts:

I have checked battery voltage from the standpoint of voltage drop as the engine cycles in rpm..but I have NOT checked that value to the ECM.

It is not the AC..have checked that. I realize the engine speed increases when the AC comp is switched on.

I guess it's an idle air control motor on the TBI. Some electrical thing, anyway (there's info for 'ya!).

It doesn't do it when it's hot..but it has to be hotter than it normally gets, so temperature may be an issue. I've put in 3-4 different t-stats (OEMs have considerably bigger bobbins) partly in an attempt to fix this tbl. Currently a 180º, but water OUT of the block with the stat open is only about 165º.

It works better with a vacuum signaled 3-lead box on the firewall unplugged! ...No, I have no clue what that part is, but it idles better without it.

If you're willing, I would much appreciate your input. Email would work better for that..mine is posted here.

Thanks!! I was really joking about the free diagnosis..but I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

TWMOODY · Post by **TWMOODY** » 10:48 pm Dec 07 2006

Just an update on what I found.
The left hand valve had casting burs on 2 gears that were binding in the valve bore
at the almost fully open position and almost closed position causing the valve to stick partialy open and not opening up smoothly. Rather than returnig to dealer
under warranty(they suck to be nice about it) I ground the high spots off and
then using a fine file smoothed the gear teeth.
It now moves very smooth and easy.
BTW this came new with 2 copper washers/spacers on the detent ball/spring assy.
Thanks for everyones help and advise,time to tip one !

Colorado Mike · Post by **Colorado Mike** » 11:02 pm Dec 07 2006

good job! glad you got it working right.

Post by **Indawoods** » 11:18 pm Dec 07 2006

That's great news! Ma Kaw has been responsible more than a time or two for sending out bikes that were not completely right!

canyncarvr · Post by **canyncarvr** » 11:58 pm Dec 07 2006

Good deal!

Uh oh...I forgot something...(why remember it NOW?)

Cylinder AND head nuts the same...18.0ft/lbs.

A MotionPro 'speshul' wrench with a square drive in the middle of it is about a necessity when it comes to torquing the fasteners.

Remember to support tha KIPS activation shaft when you tighten that claw/drive!

...I thought it CAME with one washer under that bolt.

So much for thinking....

The cylinders I've paid attention to in that area both came from FRP..and I thought it was something he did.

TWMOODY · Post by **TWMOODY** » 07:38 am Dec 08 2006

I guessed at 20 so I have 2 extra lbs..............

canyncarvr · Post by **canyncarvr** » 09:45 am Dec 08 2006

Keep an eye on it for any coolant leakage indication..white smoke, sweet smell to the exhaust.

At the +/- spec for most torque wrenches, especially if you used a ft/lb instead of an in/lb wrench, if it was set for 20ft/lb, it could well be too much. You know stuff like that as a mech...that and aluminum is touchy...AND the studs used aren't exactly stellar in quality.

Extra washers: Reduces spring pressure on the detent spring/ball.

Reduced pressure at that point still allows for a detent (holding) effect, but the reduction means the required centrifigal 'drive' from the other side that makes the KIPS activate will be less, and so the KIPS will 'open' earlier in the RPM band.

It's an old Fredette tip.

If the OEM configuration is two washers, I am mistaken on the WASHER part of it lessening the spring tension. In which case it's some other method of reducing that pressure. I don't recall that he takes it out altogether.

BuyKaw does indeed show two washers at the location.

TW: Do you recall how far (if) the spring extended from the bolt? On my cylinders the spring is flush with the end...maybe even a tad below.

stringburner · Post by **stringburner** » 11:09 am Dec 08 2006

Colorado Mike wrote:Put the bike back together, take the round slotted cover off the left side and start the bike. Watch the nut in there as you rev the bike. When you hit around 6K rpm, it should rotate, and turn back once you let off the gas.

Is this how you tell for sure your KIPS valve is operating correctly? I took that off and the marks are lined up when the bike is off, but that's about all I know. I wonder if it's possible for a new bike to have the valve not operating 100% correctly. I'm guessing yes. The manual doesn't have much about checking the KIPS for proper actuation, just removal/reassembly. Is there a thread somewheres about how to tell if it's working just right?

KDXer · Post by **KDXer** » 11:11 am Dec 08 2006

Start the bike and see if it rotates at around 6K rpm.

stringburner · Post by **stringburner** » 12:54 pm Dec 08 2006

Thanks, i'll try that the next time there's a carb and fuel tank on it. It seems like it would be hard to gauge 6000 rpm by ear. Ya'll use a test tachometer or something?

KDXer · Post by **KDXer** » 01:53 pm Dec 08 2006

Just keep revving until it snaps open. If you hit redline and it hasn't moved you're in strife. It really is a simple process.

canyncarvr · Post by **canyncarvr** » 06:17 pm Dec 08 2006

stringburner wrote:
Colorado Mike wrote:Put the bike back together, take the round slotted cover off the left side and start the bike. Watch the nut in there as you rev the bike. When you hit around 6K rpm, it should rotate, and turn back once you let off the gas.
Is this how you tell for sure your KIPS valve is operating correctly? I took that off and the marks are lined up when the bike is off, but that's about all I know. I wonder if it's possible for a new bike to have the valve not operating 100% correctly. I'm guessing yes. The manual doesn't have much about checking the KIPS for proper actuation, just removal/reassembly. Is there a thread somewheres about how to tell if it's working just right?

The 'if it's possible' part was shown to be true in this thread, was it not?

Is this how you tell?

No. It tells you part of the story, but not the whole thing. You do not know if the subport drums are timed and/or moving correctly OR if the main valve is working by observing the main shaft under the slotted cover move. The main shaft can turn just fine and NO valve or drum move at all!

Post by **Indawoods** » 06:36 pm Dec 08 2006

No... but you can pull the pipe, stick you fingers in the hole and manually activate the KIPS by turning the shaft and feel the PV turn into position on either side through the exhaust port.

This will tell you if everything is attached and working.... put it back together and then rev to 6K and watch it do ity on it's own. If it fails then I would suspect the actuator.

stringburner · Post by **stringburner** » 06:46 pm Dec 08 2006

Now we're getting somewhere. You take the expansion chamber off, and stick your phalanges in there. Now where do you manipulate the shaft at? Do you access it from the cover above the exhaust port? There's nothing at'all in the left hand cover that says "KIPS" on it.

Post by **Indawoods** » 06:49 pm Dec 08 2006

Pull the cover on the other side.... the one covering the activator.... manipulate that shaft back and forth....CAREFULLY!!!!

Re: phalanges

Reminds me when I took my daughter to Applebee's and she ordered Chicken Phalanges... that waitress had such a blank look on her face.... we had a huge laugh at the waitresses expense....

TWMOODY · Post by **TWMOODY** » 11:17 pm Dec 08 2006

canyncarvr
The detent spring was set in the screw about .005-.010 k from the top, not quite flush.
I ran it tonight and SMOOTH operation but I would say the power valves open at about 3-4k rpm I took it for a quick ride but with 20 degrees and 2 inches of snow I can't tell what difference it has cause its a slippery ride.
I ordered my FMF desert today from bandits then I just have to send the carb
to Ron and I should be in good shape.
There is a group of us going to west virginia in the spring to the Hatfield Macoy Trails which should be a fantastic trip and I would like to atleast keep up with the
younger guys I ride with.

On the post asking about the KIPS- - - Look in the exhaust port when you manually open the kips, you can see the opening in the bore and if they are timed properly.
The timing marks are not perfect-close but no cigar. Look in there with a LCD pen light.
You can only adjust the left side.

KDXer · Post by **KDXer** » 11:56 pm Dec 08 2006

TWMOODY wrote:canyncarvr
The detent spring was set in the screw about .005-.010 k from the top, not quite flush.
I ran it tonight and SMOOTH operation but I would say the power valves open at about 3-4k rpm

Wow that sounds very low in the RPM range.

TWMOODY wrote:You can only adjust the left side.

Not sure what you mean by that ??

Are you refering to the sub-valves ??

TWMOODY · Post by **TWMOODY** » 07:44 am Dec 09 2006

The power valve itself.
The only adjustment I see is on the left side valve rod gear at the center shaft,
unless there is an adjustment in the right side case that adjusts the center shaft
operation.

kdennan · Post by **kdennan** » 06:30 am Dec 10 2006

Heed the words of CM. The KIPs is big time. It is sooo easy to break the governor shaft thingy when doing a top end. I did mine on a brand new bike when I replaced the scary stock 220 piston with a Wiseco. The LH thread nut was on so tight from the factory that since I did not have great grab on the holder slot, I twisted the shaft a mm to far. I had no idea I did it. In the following months of winter I put on a list of mods, broke it out in the spring only to find that the bike seemed weaker than stock. Sure enough, the $7 part had broken off and started to munch up in the clutch. I finally realized it when a piece wedged under the shifter pawl and I couldn't get her into gear.
Now let me tell you, I put in the new one and with the VF3 along with all the other standard "must do" mods, I have one pissed little green machine. About a month or two ago I got a chance to ride a stocker because my friend was having a fit trying to make it up a gnarly creek bed. I got the bike up for him but it was a serious test of my ability to fan a clutch. Not an issue on mine. It was like an autoclutch kind of feel. You can lug the bike down to a stroke away from a stall and blip the throttle to any stage on the slide and the bike reacts to it.
From what I hear. The VF3 is a good one. I have it but did not even bother with the others and I am very happy with it. It has a built in torque spacer so there is the bottom pull you might be looking for and it definitely has over rev! The wheelies don't stop until I get scared.

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Boyesen rad valve -VS- VForce3