Wheel Bearings

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stringburner
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Wheel Bearings

Post by stringburner »

Are these something you can grease w/o removing them, or do they have to be removed to be serviced? Or are they sealed units that are replace only?
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Post by canyncarvr »

You can go through the motions of greasing them without removing them, but it won't work too well. You will get some grease in there, but the seal on the INside will prevent you from pushing grease THRU the rollers.

You may have a bit of a hard time getting the OUTside seal off the bearing because it's sitting INside the wheel, but it does come off.

What would you replace them with? If the $4 junk AllBalls or something similar, they aren't worth the time.

If they are quality Koyos or NSKs (say from CBR), they are lifetime guaranteed anyway..and my personal experience is that repacking them maintenance-wise doesn't accomplish much. If they're bad, just put in a new set (you don't buy the bearings, but do pay the shipping).

The better bearings outlast the cheap ones easily by a factor of 3-4.

If you can feel any play in the wheel, the bearings are shot.

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Post by stringburner »

It's more of a new bike pre-ride prep type of thing...Doing the swingarm/linkage/steering stem bearing thing, and got to thinking about the wheel bearings while it's tore down.
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Post by KarlP »

When I have my wheel off I like to clean the area between the axle seal and the bearing and pack that area with grease. I also like to lightly grease the whole axle because it makes later disassembly easier by keeping water out and rust down. At least I think it does.

CC is right, you can't get grease INTO the wheel bearing without removing them and disturbing the seals. That would probably do more harm than good.

What I do is what I do, and is not in any way meant to be a suggestion as to what other people should do. Its my bike and I'll screw it up if I want to :supz:
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Post by stringburner »

I guess ill leave them alone then. :grin:
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Post by IdahoCharley »

I also agree with CC post on the bearing.

Just an additional note though - do not skimp on the seals. It is my belief that even a cheaper bearing can last quite a while if you can keep it clean and greased. Even a high quality bearing will not last much longer if you can't keep the crud out - sez I. Whenever I pull a wheel I always pop the spacers and clean the seals in place and then lightly coat the inner lip of the seal with a smear of grease.

When we have spent a day crossing a significant number of streams that are over the height of the axles I like to pull the rear axle and blow out the spacer area and generally check on how much muck has entered the general hub area.

I use Belray waterproof grease in the wheel bearings prior to installing new bearings and then install the seals and fill the space between the seal and the bearing with waterproof grease. This seems to have helped keep crud out of the rear hub area. Not really sure that bearing last any longer because of all the variables. (Of course you need to clean up any grease that gets squeezed out onto any of the surfaces that come into contact with dirt - the old dirt magnet abilities of grease will do harm if not eliminated)

FWIW - I use to pull the front axle (after a day of water crossings) and check the front hub but it seems like there is almost never anything out of the ordinary in it unless the bike has sat in the water for some time.
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Post by stringburner »

Theres a big thread over on KTMTalk about wheel bearings, and they seem to be kind of split on it. One guy removes the seal and greases the bearing, another guy says it's a waste of time and that you compromise the seal by doing that. I think the main theme is that if you can keep dirt and gunk out, they will last. If not, they are toast. I don't foresee doing any deep water crossings at this point, so i'll just smear some grease around where I can, and the axles, and behind where the spacer goes, and call it a day.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Re: 'When I have my wheel off I like to clean the area between the axle seal and the bearing and pack that area with grease. I also like to lightly grease the whole axle because it makes later disassembly easier by keeping water out and rust down. At least I think it does.'

You bet!!

See that video of Fredette changing his rear tire at the ISDE? His axle popped out when he popped it with an open palm.

THAT is an axle that has been greased (well..and certainly not ridden for a couple years before it was put in a box and sent to NZ!)

Re: 'compromise the seal..'

Baloney. If you can't take off a bearing seal without ruining it..you probably shouldn't be wrenching on your bike at all.

I've taken bearings out, removed both seals, soaked them in kero, repacked and replaced them with no problems at all. Not a great idea to be pounding on the inner race to remove the things, but I put them IN with anti-seize grease on the outer race, so they come out with some light taps.

Pushing new grease into skanky old crud isn't likely to be of any benefit at all.

Re: '... and call it a day.'

Yeah buddy!!

Spend the time on your STEERING HEAD bearings!!

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Post by stringburner »

Boy, I got about everything I can thing of greased, loctited, and torqued. I got the swingarm bearings greased up and the bolt torqued up....I tried to silicone the rubber boots back on, but the slobbers just made things slippery, and they'd just pop right back off. Didn't work at'all. I'll try some super glue next i reckon. I put a good bit of grease in the rear wheel bearings. I noticed there was plenty of room for more grease, so I kept working it in until they were full. Since it's new, and they are clean, I think that'll work just fine. Hmmm, what else....Loctited and torqued the kickstart lever and gear shift lever, took the upper and lower chain rollers off and greased the bushings/loctited the bolts....I may be going overboard but this stuff is pretty fun. I'll check the sprocket/ disk bolts tomorrow for locking compound and torque them. Thats about it I reckon. I'll grease the steering stem bearings after they get pressed onto the other triple tree...I got a couple questions yet. There is a torque spec for the steering stem nut, and a steering stem head nut. I assume the steering stem nut is the one that purportedly takes a special wrench...so whatta ya'll do? Snug it down 'till its tight and check for play, and make sure it's not too tight? And another question I'll ask tomorrow after I become less under the influence of adult beverages, when my thought processes are a bit clearer. :mrgreen:

Oh yeah, CC. You were right about the uni-trak linkage bolts wanting to catch. Even though they appear to be tightening up, I was watching and the bolt side of the rubber bushing didint appear to be compressing as much as the nut side, and then it let loose and clamped up properly. I see how they could catch and have the loose, bushing/bearing/rod destroying situation you described if you didn't really watch what was going on there. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.
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Post by alistair »

i used grip glue to glue the rubber cap thing back on
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Post by canyncarvr »

Putting any sort of goop on the axle caps is problematic...you're sealing the edges, then trying to push it into a then airtight cavity.

You have to 'smush' the thing into place..deforming it to let the trapped air out to get it in far enough that it will stay when the goo is dry.

Don't get loctite on the kicker knuckle splines. It's hard to take off if you do that...and you WILL do that at some point when the kicker/knuckle wears out.

I don't recall the names of the steering nuts unless I look them up. The one with any torque to speak of is on TOP of the triple. The spanner-type nut underneath is NOT tightened much. Tighten IT as you would a tapered roller wheel bearing.

If that isn't self explanatory, ask. No need to go on about it if you've worked with any tapered roller setups before.

Uh oh....do these ANSWERS need to NOT be under the influence? Ooops..... :blink:

Good deal on the unitrack. Better to catch it before than after!

Loctite isn't going to hold the shifter on if it gets loose. Probably a good idea to check that clamp for slop after the first ride. IF it looses up (or the clamp loosens up some) you will destroy one piece or the other (hopefully the lever) pretty quick. Probably better to GREASE that connection so it comes OFF when it needs to. I put anti-seize on mine...but that's an aluminum shifter to a steel shaft. It IS in a spot that picks up a lot of dirt...water...mud...crud.

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Post by stringburner »

I did get the swingarm bolt/nut caps to stay onfor a few seconds by letting the air out on one side and having it puckered in the middle (like you described), but it still slid right on off. I'll try super glue or grip glue the next time. It sure looked like it had super glue on them to begin w/, and it was pretty hard to get it all off the insides before my reinstall attempts. I was thinking a pinhole in the center of them would aid in installing them w/ silicone, but the rubber would probably mash right back together and i'd be back to square one. Of course a bigger hole would work, but that would void any benefits of having them on there in the first place. :?

Steering Stem nuts: Ok, there are two bolts w/ torque specs. The one is the spanner nut, and the spec is a "starting point". It says to tighten it hand tight, or 35 inch pounds. Then work the steering back and forth a few times and recheck for play. I think I can handle that, or, I understand the point: Tight enough to remove play, but not so tight that it is difficult to move.

The shifter: Ok, I only used the medium strength loctite on there w/ the oem steel shifter. Still recommend antiseize in that situation? I was thinking definitely antiseize on the kickstand bolts (steel into aluminum), but I wasn't sure how prone they were to backing out.

I DID learn that when you remove the swingarm, you need to put the chain back on PRIOR to reinstalling the swingarm if you don't want to break the chain via the master link. :rolleyes: Hadn't removed one of those in a loooonnnng time, but it was pretty easy using a vise to hold the chain. And I did put the closed end facing forward when I put it back together.

The other question I had was in reference to the usd upgrade, but i'll reread some stuff over there, and see if I find the answer. If not, i'll ask over yonder.

And Happy Thanksgiving to you guys. Don't eat too dang much or ya'll will have to buy heavier fork/shock springs after the holidays. :mrgreen:
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Post by canyncarvr »

Come to think of it, I used masking tape to hold the cap on until the RTV dried. Then you get to NOT yank the cap off with the tape!

Re: 'I was thinking a pinhole... '

Did that, too.


Re: 'It says to tighten it hand tight, or 35 inch pounds. ..'

If that's the exent of it, you will be back there tightening it again shortly.

You got the number from the torque spec sheets in the front of the manual? That is NOT the whole of the assembly procedure.

Look in the steering section (section 12) for the critical steps done before the final torque.

Again, it's like any tapered roller bearing assembly. You didn't mention the most important parts.

Any questions?

I'll bet you took the chain off AFTER the swingarm came off..so, yeah..it goes back together in reverse order..chain first. I think I maybe recall doing the same thing.... :oops: Maybe. :wink: Seems you can fish the chain on (in one piece) after the swingarm is on though...

I have used plain grease on the OEM shifter..anti-seize on the kicker...and loctite on the kickstand bolts. If you go to any moto track, they will make you take your kickstand off..'cuz they've seen to many of them COME off I guess. Loctite blue is fine..it seals the threads and keeps the different metals from corroding.

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Post by stringburner »

I got the spec. from the online manual ( I have a brick and mortar version on the way too :mrgreen: ). Here is the jist of it up to putting the top clamp on:

Install the steering shaft into the gooseneck and install the upper bearing and the steering stem adjustment nut. Turn the steering shaft lock to lock about six times to seat the new bearings. Make sure that there is no restriction when turning the steering stem back and forth.
Torque the steering adjustment nut to hand tight or (3.9 N.m - 35 in-lb)
NOTE: This adjustment is a starting point, you will need to test the bearings after the motorcycle is reassembled. It may need to be adjusted several times before you get it correct. The handlebars should move side to side smoothly but not too loosely. NOTE: Temporarily install the front forks before tightening the steering stem adjustment nut to its torque specification


I think you are referring to the seating procedure before the torquing that is crucial. No, I don't know about tapered roller bearings.

Yep, chain came off after the swingarm. Just didn't think to put it back on first before putting the swingarm back on. No big deal.

Didn't know the thread locking compound would act as an anti-corrosive between dissimilar metals. Are you sure? And if so, that's good to know.

CC, you wrote: Don't get loctite on the kicker knuckle splines. It's hard to take off if you do that...and you WILL do that at some point when the kicker/knuckle wears out.


I'm not 100% sure on this. I think you mean some part of the uni-trak linkage, I just can't get my mind wrapped around where I locked eyeballs on....Oh wait. You mean the kickstart lever splines. I think i'm ok there. I just put some in the nut and screwed it on. Sometimes my mind is a bit fuzzier after I took on a few beers the night before. :?
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Post by canyncarvr »

Re:'You mean the kickstart lever splines. '

Yep. The kickstart lever knuckle splines. Where there ARE splines on the kickstart assy.

Re: 'Here is the jist ..'

Here is not the gist, but a quote from the service manual:

Page 12-6 STEERING

The following four steps should be performed after steering bearing replacement. (No it does not specifically say the same applies to reassembly with in-place bearings..and argument could be made as to why that would be different...but this procedure works fine for both situations, reassembly with in-place bearings OR assembly with new bearings) This procedure settles the bearings in place.

Tighten the stem nut to 29ft/lbs of torque. (Following this statement is a procedure using a special tool and a spring gauge. If you don't know what 29ft/lbs is, tighten some other suitable fastener to that spec to get the idea. I suppose one of those 'one fits all' spring loaded pin type sockets would work on this fastener, otherwise you will be stuck with the drift-n-hammer approach. Tough to guage 29ft/lbs that way..but if you're mechanically inclined, you'll know)

Again back out the stem nut a fraction of a turn until it turns lightly.

To adjust the steering, turn the stem nut lightly clockwise until it just becomes hard to turn. Do not overtighten, or the steering will be too tight. 35in/lbs

Head nut is 33FT/lbs.


My version:

While rotating the stem back and forth, tighten the stem nut moderately. Stop rotating the stem. While supporting the stem (don't let it drop) loosen the stem nut, then retighten to finger-firm. Check to ensure the stem moves freely back and forth. If you feel any catch, snick or drag (don't count maybe the cables in the way on the LH side), something isn't right. Fix it.


Whew!.....


Your rendition will not seat the bearings. After your first ride, they will be loose. Very possibly you won't be able to TELL that, and bearing life will be shortened considerably if they are run loose.

It's the moderate torque of the first step that seats the bearings, the finger-tight of the second step puts them at an acceptable running clearance.


Either your gist of the matter...or the online version...is wrong. While it is mentioned to put the nut ON, there was no mention of torque. Simply moving the stem back and forth isn't going to seat anything (without the correct/suitable/proper torque on the assembly.

FWIW..to tighten a tapered roller setup on a wheel (old school), you spin the wheel as you tighten the nut. Stop spinning the wheel. Loosen the nut, retighten to light pressure, put in a new cotter pin, you're done.

Why stop spinning/turning the 'thing'? Because if it is still moving when you loosen the nut it may drop out of place, and the light pressure meant to HOLD it correctly will not squeeze/pull it back together in the first place, let alone put the correct final pressure on the tapered rollers.

Amen.

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Stem tightening, etc.

Post by stringburner »

CC, that wasn't my gist of it, that was a direct copy from the online manual. I never thought of the gator grip or whatever they were called socket full of pins thing to use on the spanner nut....interesting. Do those things really work? I saw one at Sears the other day when I was there. I loosened the nut w/ a pair of locking pliers over a cloth when i removed it, and it wasn't difficult to do, even w/o scarring the nut.

Reading what you wrote in your version: "Turn the stem". I can't turn my stem I don't think. I can turn the lower clamp and the stem w/ it while tightening the nut. I think that's what you meant, just wanted to clarify.

What i got to thinking about What you're doing is seating the bearing on the stem, moreso than seating the bearings in the race, or both? I just want to understand this stuff.

Oh yeah, one more thing. I noticed the head nut washer is cupped. I'm guessing that's to preload the nut and keep it from loosening. I didn't notice when i took it off, but I think it would go on like...um....frowning, as opposed to smiling....
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Post by canyncarvr »

..and mine was a direct (via me) copy from the printed service manual.

I'm sure they (the grip things) would work fine. I'm not sure they come in a size big enough for that particular fastener. The advantage is...you can't snap a torque wrench on your locking pliers.....

Uh...you turn the stem by turning the bottom clamp....not by turning the stem separately. Consider it clarified.

The bearing had better already be sat on the stem. If you're moving it with the diddly pressure involved, you didn't put it on right in the first place.

Frowning sounds good! Interesting way to put it..but it works!

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