KDXRIDER.NET

im in the process of rejetting and i want to know which needle and where to buy it. i have not done the rb carb work, from what ive seen i want a cel or del needle?

carbparts.com

Comes out of Cleveland, OH. I got a CEL and a DEL as well as some MJ/PJ jets (DEL is "late" but other than that I got everything within 2 days).

I had a question about these needles. When I go to a shop here in town what do I ask for? A Keilin CEL needle jet? I dont want to look like a complete fool.

They don't cost THAT much. Get both of them. Get a clip or two while you're at it.

Bleak: Any parts guy that can't understand 'CEL needle for a Keihin', is a boob.

BTW, the needle jet is what the needle moves in and out of..it's what the main jet screws INto.

So...don't ask for a CEL needle jet.

...you could ask for a CEL jet needle. That would work!

M0rie: What's the year the jet block height changed? And..it was lower before or higher? Two clips difference?

That has nothing to do with an '01...

95 is when the jet block height changed. The height moved up 2mm which if the slide is the same makes for a 2 clip difference.

canyncarvr wrote: BTW, the needle jet is what the needle moves in and out of..it's what the main jet screws INto.

So...don't ask for a CEL needle jet.

...you could ask for a CEL jet needle. That would work!

Whoops! Remember the making of the fool part.

R-1370 J would also be the same as a CEL jet needle.

Locally here in the boondocks the parts guys are not familiar with Sudco or Carb Parts Warehouse brass needle nomenclature but usually have a box of jet needles on the shelf segregated by the number marked on the needle.

(Of course to make matters more confusing the part numbers that manufactures used for the jet needles are normally different than the jet needle number which is beyond the comprehesion of 99% of the people working the counter)

With a stock 200, the carb will have a #5 slide. If you go thinner in needle diameter than say an N, you may get a very rich running 200 on the bottom end.

The stock diameter needle is a "Q", run with a #5 throttle valve cutaway and a 48 pilot jet. The Q is the fattest needle availabe for the PWK/PJ carb. Fat meaning that it lets the least amount of fuel by the fixed diameter non-removealbe needle jet in the range that the needle diameter is most effective, 0-1/4 throttle range as compared to the other needle diameters, A-Q.

You can drop the pilot jet from the stock 48 to a 42 or 45 and try an L or N diameter needle. This has nothing to do with taper.

If you want to do it cheap, keep the 48 pilot, go with the large diameter Q needle and pick a taper that starts later, such as a CEQ or DEQ. Those tapers will help the off-idle bogging and four stroking. Take the airbox lid off and run a 158 main with a C taper or a 155 main if you go to a D taper. If it is still rich off idle, go with a 45 pilot but keep the Q diameter. Start by running this on clip 3, then clip 4 if it bogs when you open the throttle quickly.

Fat needle = fat pilot jet
Skinny needle = skinny pilot jet

B taper as comes stock = Blubber machine
C taper = hard MX type hit
D taper = smoother, later hit, more control
E taper = heaven, no hit, very smooth almost '70s trail bike type smooth delivery

do more research and look at the keihin /sudco web sites before you decide. BTW I have a few Q and N and L diameter needles if you want them just pm me.

Just a note for Bailey's excellent post: 95+ 200's have a #5 slide, 89-94 200's have a #6 slide. Everything else is spot on.

The cost of that 'close' OEM needle is ridiculous..which is why Keihin brass needles are the more common choice.

Re: '..go with the large diameter Q needle and pick a taper that starts later, such as a CEQ or DEQ..


I don't think so. You take into account the large difference in L1...where? There are two clips worth to be figured, and that matters. Obviously you can move the clip, but that wasn't mentioned.

A CEQ is NOT more lean nowhere than an R1174N (for example..same clip).

A DEQ IS MORE lean than an R1174N, but not for very long. Less than 1/4 throttle and it's considerably more rich (for example..same clip).

Which 'E' needle do you like? An EEK? With that fast a taper, a 38.15mm L1 doesn't work. Well, I didn't like it, anyway. The 'E' fuel delivery slope jerks around all over the place!

But, whatever floats your boat!

ok, so when i got to my local kawi dealer, i ask for a keihin{how do you pronounce it?} CEL jet needle, R-1370 J?

I say 'Kee-in'.

I don't suppose the Japanese say it that way.....

I'd guess that IC came up with the 'R' number from chart lookups as opposed to sourcing that actual needle?

Just because the numbers translate doesn't mean there is any such thing actually made.

The 'R' needle (if it exists) will cost you 4x as much as a Keihin brass needle.

Go to any bike shop, ask for a jet or needle and the parts guy will probably pull out a plastic tray full of parts for your particular carb or by manufacturer. In that case, asking for a 'CEL' shouldn't be any problem.

If he/she/they/it ask you for 'make, model, year,' they're headed the wrong direction.

Politely say, 'I said CEL moron. Let me worry about the make model and year!'

I'm sure they will love you forever.!

If other bike shops are similar to those 'round these parts, you would be better going to the neighborhood shop on the corner, not the dealer.

Call around on the phone and simply ask if the have a CEL needle for Keihin carb..a small body PWK even, if that makes'em happy.

[quote="canyncarvr"]I say 'Kee-in'.


"I'd guess that IC came up with the 'R' number from chart lookups as opposed to sourcing that actual needle?

Just because the numbers translate doesn't mean there is any such thing actually made.

The 'R' needle (if it exists) will cost you 4x as much as a Keihin brass needle."

Actually picked the R1370J needle off of James Dean's spreadsheet program as one the available hard anodized needles from the OEM needles. Problem is it could be Honda, Kawaski, Suzuki I really don't know which manufacture - IMO it likely Honda - but don't know for sure.

Cost of Honda needles in Idaho Falls is $18/needle at Bill Cycle Honda shop.

That's what I get for guessing.

Should'a known IC would use a 'real' needle number and not something morphed from a conversion table.

My apologies.

Haha, well they lied!! I called the shops here in town and when I first asked them they all said that they have all the jetting a man could ever want. And they were wrong. First guy I called had absolutly no idea what I was talking about and the second new what a CEL was but didnt carry them because no-ones every asked about them.

Well...we know who's the fool now, 'eh?

That's funny.

Ask a simple question...get stupid stare....well, on the phone, I guess just a pregnant pause...........

Ha!!

Fact is (sez me) 'jetting' to most means putting in a different main jet. Most don't know if they have an air screw or a fuel screw, let alone what a taper is on a needle.

This past Saturday some maroon was hotrodding his 4-stroke around..he seemed to think he was cool (natch) because he was making a LOT of noise. A LOT of backfiring, no-idle racket!!

But he WAS cool!!

Kidding, of course. What he was doing with every twist of the throttle was advertising, 'I'm an idiot!!!'

He needed a sign..................

but how was his mullet?

Some feedback on the CEL needle results . . .

('03 220, 32:1 Mobil 1 synth, 40/145, several holes in airbox lid, gnarly rev, stock silencer, a/s roughly 1.5 and temp at 52F)

I replaced the stock needle with the CEL, started right off the bat with clip @ #3 position. The difference was obvious but not huge. From 0-1/8 throttle (or thereabouts) the bike ran a little rich-like (is this the "blubbering" to which several have referred?). More throttle and a perceptable difference in the hit, not huge though. From low/mid-to-mid range I could snap/release the throttle open/closed and the bike had a more prominent "lunge". Overall the CEL "hastened" the power curve.

WOT plug chop revealed the bike was plenty rich so I put a 142 main in. OK, here's where things got exiting!
1. Not as much roughness just off idle, then YES - bigger hit! Not a 250-WHOA HOSS hit, more like a 125. But down low. Bigger "lunge" factor - with timing and throttle I could make the front wheel very light. Very cool. If I rolled the throttle slowly it would crackle, just a little, right before the hit (and the hit was more subtle in this case).
2.Improved snap starting from midrange and up (up, of course, is relative on the 220). Again, very cool.

Different story in the woods, but frankly it was muddy with wet leaves AND I need to replace the rear tire. So I'll only say I slid around a little


Another WOT chop reveals that I'm still rich but I ran out of time!! 'Would've been interesting to explore further (that's my plan over the holidays!)

Thanks, m0rie, for the tip on the CEL!!

More later!!

thebleakness wrote:Haha, well they lied!! I called the shops here in town and when I first asked them they all said that they have all the jetting a man could ever want. And they were wrong. First guy I called had absolutly no idea what I was talking about and the second new what a CEL was but didnt carry them because no-ones every asked about them.

Call the number listed on carbparts.com - they'll know what you're asking about!!

what about the needle fredette sells? what does it do?
http://www.frpoffroad.com/catalog/detai ... ?ProdID=43