VERY Tight Clutch Lever ???

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jwh02017
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Post by jwh02017 »

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Indawoods wrote:I want a pic of your forearm please! :grin:


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haha

The other night I went over to my buddies house and tested out his WR250 clutch lever pull. He told me he could pull his clutch lever with one finger and he was right... it was super easy. He rode my KDX the other day and he said it was WAY too tight.

Do you guys think that little bit of wear on the edge of the actuator could cause it to be really tight? I don't see how it could, but I'm grabbing for anything right now...haha

Justin
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Post by canyncarvr »

Yes, it is just semantics, but....

Mike said, ''I just can't help but think it got screwed up when you replaced the cable,...'

That part of it has nothing to do with YOU screwing up anything. Again, I've had a number of experiences with MotionPro cables that makes me suspect the cable. That's why I've opted for OEM cables on my bike.

The type you mentioned...'terminator' or somesuch..that is the axially wrapped housing?

Motion Pro® Terminator Replacement Cables

A premium type of cable housing used primarily for clutch applications
“Longitudinally-Wound” housing to prevent housing compression, and subsequent loss of motion as well as provide for a more precise clutch feel .

..never mind........

p.s. Get rid of that burr.

Is that shaft hardened? If it is, replace it. Any burr to it means the hardness part is gone, dressing it would be a waste of time.

The pic of it looks pretty nasty. Looks like some pretty simple potted metal junk.

Is there a metulurgist in the house?
Last edited by canyncarvr on 02:59 pm Jun 08 2006, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by zkdx »

Note: above forearm is not from clutch cable pulling however he has been pulling something. :)


When he first got this bike 3wks ago. Clutch lever worked normal, trail ride insues he notices fraid cable, we run to my house grab cable from my old 87 kdx, it's about 1/2" shorter. We adjust it out all the way, move perch a little to right, voila! Well kind of this is when it became so tight, So I said "well go ahead and order the new cable. I have looked at the actuator angle, and it's fine, the clutch cable is installed correctly I didn't see any problems with the routing. When the clutch is pulled in the springs are compressed correct? They are not suppose to bottom out correct? If his springs are below service limits is he not squeezing against a bottomed out spring.

JasonWho where are you, surely you have some knowledge about this, tear one of those kdx's apart, or are you still working on that 250 :mrgreen:
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Post by canyncarvr »

They are not supposed to bottom out.

If they ARE doing that, you should be able to feel it...easy to start, hard at the end of the pull.

If the springs are too short (have compressed) due to use, failure, whatever, they won't coil-bind. You will just have too much 'space' over 'spring'..they won't hook up (pressure applied to the plates is reduced).

Putting it together with washers for spacers didn't accomplish anything good. That could have CAUSED coil-bind, though!

re: 1/2" shorter.

What's the freeplay in this setup?

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Indawoods
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Post by Indawoods »

See... that's your problem... wrong arm! :roll:

Must buy non-chinese cable! :wink:

CC... mine looks like the same junk metal... tis the way Ma Kaw intended it!
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Post by canyncarvr »

I've looked at mine a couple times...but not that closely, I guess. The pic in this thread looks pretty crappy.

As goobered as engineering job as it is, having a sharp metal edge be forcefully applied to a flat piece of metal does seem to work fairly well.

BTW...m0rie's clutch is way-too-hard to pull. I recall him saying his actuating lever/shaft to have a similar appearance on the flat edge. That doesn't necessarily mean anything.......

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jwh02017
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Post by jwh02017 »

canyncarvr: I got the MotionPro cable from Rockey Mountain ATV because I thought it would be better... I even got the more expensive cable too. Where do you get OEM cables at? I've aready removed the little burr. The burr came right off so I wouldn't think it was hardened to begin with.

zkdx: "Note: above forearm is not from clutch cable pulling however he has been pulling something. :) " haha funny :lol:

When we replaced the cable with the 1/2" shorter one (and even now with the new cable), it still has full range of motion in the lever... it's just really tight. canyncarvr if you are asking about the free play in the lever with the shorter cable, there was none... the lever was tight up against the perch.

Indawoods: "See... that's your problem... wrong arm!" haha

What are the chances that one or two of the springs got weak, and it is now causing the plate to bind up? Probably slim to none... but hopefully I'll find out for sure tomorrow when the new springs get here. I wish I knew more about how the clutch worked.... as in what parts move and what stays fixed in the clutch housing.

If the new springs don't work, I'm thinking about moving the clutch lever, cable and perch over to the right side of the handle bars. This should remove all chances that the cable is binding up... since it will no longer be routed through the frame. I guess I could always move the clutch perch to the center of the handle bars and just rig up a really long clutch lever to give me more leverage :lol:

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Post by canyncarvr »

I get OEM cables from the local Kaw dealer. Their prices are often as good as RonAyers...and no shipping (well, not separately added I mean)!!

If the clutch pack was not evenly squeezed (your weak spring question) it could bind, yes. That's what Inda's comment was about (scuffed tower) I think.

Yeah. You could move the clutch to the RH side, but then...if you put your brake on the LH side, the MC would be upside down! :roll:

It will be interesting to see if the 'new' springs you get are the correct length and the SAME length. The last clutch spring set I got varied in length a LOT.

Good Luck. Let us know how you fixed it!!

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Post by Indawoods »

OK.... I can turn my clutch rod with my hand when assembled... not real easy but I can. Can you do this with yours?

If not... I think it is in the clutch... if so... I think it's cable or routing.
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Post by jwh02017 »

canyncarvr: I don't have a local Kaw dealer. There is just Honda in my area. And the last time I went in there asking for Kaw parts, they looked at me like I was from another planet. :shock: I think there is a Kaw dealer within driving distance, but I was kinda wanting to just pay for shipping instead of paying for gas to drive there.... should be cheaper that way. I didn't get a chance to look at my bike last night, but I think the "scuffed tower" is just oil or grease.... but I'll double check. If I do move the clutch to the right hand side, it'll only be a temporary thing... I hopefully won't even have to remove the brake.

Indawoods: Thanks for trying to turn your clutch rod. I have tried to do this before, and there is NO WAY I can move it using just my fingers. And I would like to think I have fairly strong fingers. :rolleyes:

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Post by canyncarvr »

OK....I think if you can 'turn' your clutch actuating rod with your fingers...you're mad at it!

IMO and all...but methinks that's too subjective to be of a whole lot of value. I tried turning m0rie's when trying to sort out why HIS was so hard to pull. It wasn't under threat of death that I could not turn it, but I did get a pair of pliers to twist it after a very short effort with fingers and NO pliers.

Either of you (or specifically, jwh and one other person) have a spring tool to test the pull with? THAT would be interesting.

You could do the same thing with a bathroom scale and a piece of dowel I suppose...pushing instead of pulling.

If you have no Kaw dealer close by, RonAyers is a good bet. Yeah..shipping will be charged, and it's often more than what it actually costs to SHIP the part. Been there? They have a 'microfiche' similar to BuyKaw's site that makes it easier to get the parts you need. If you already have the PN, the Ayers site allows for direct input of them, too.

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Post by zkdx »

If I do move the clutch to the right hand side, it'll only be a temporary thing... I hopefully won't even have to remove the brake.

Justin[/quote]

If he leaves the clutch on the right side I will be sure and take pictures and video of his first ride :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

BTW: Gave him that old 87' clutch cable and perch to try again, just for shats and giggles.. Someone asked Justin about freeplay in the lever, believe me there is none, this thing is a monster to pull. Hopefully with the new springs we'll see some good results or at least narrow down the problem.

If he still can't get it to work, I'll let him ride the ol' 91 white ghost :razz:
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Post by Indawoods »

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zkdx wrote: Someone asked Justin about freeplay in the lever, believe me there is none, this thing is a monster to pull. :
Well... I would think that is a problem.... you should be able to get some freeplay out of the clutch.

Proly another wrong cable. Get one from one of ma Kaw's distributors.

Try Bikebandit.com or Ron Ayers for an OEM one.
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Post by canyncarvr »

It's a given the shorty is wrong. It's off a not-same bike.

I asked the freeplay question considering that if the pull is TOO far (no freeplay) it may well indeed be too hard.

Actually I don't think the KDX IS that way..but maybe.

There is a bearing on that shaft? Or is it a slip fit? I don't recall. It pretty much sits in oil, so how could it be goobered...but obviously SOMEthing is. Goobered that is.

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Post by Colorado Mike »

no bearing, but there is an O-ring in there, which is why I asked earier if some of it got jammed around the actuator. I also wonder if that o-ring wears down too much if it could cause binding.

Also, as I recall the bearing assembly in the center of the clutch fits inside a recess. if that isn't seated properly, it could be generating side force on the clutch and bind. Same probably goes for that little top-hat looking gizmo that actually touches the actuator shaft. But, since you had all this stuff apart I'm sure you got it back together right.
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Post by Indawoods »

Just hurry up and fix and let us know what it was! :lol:
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Post by jwh02017 »

Colorado Mike: Did you say the little hole that the actuating rod sets in didn't have a bearing? The other night when I had it apart, I thought for sure I saw a little bearing pressed into that hole that the actuating rod sets in... but I may be wrong.

Well guys, I got my parts in. The set of springs they sent me had 6 springs in the package.... I only needed 4. Oh well, I guess I have a couple extras. I measured the springs and they DID measure within spec. They ranged around 1.485 +/- 0.005. They looked a little stronger than the old springs. The description did say they were 10% stronger. Tomorrow I'll try to take some pics of what the old springs look like compared to the new springs. I also got another Motion Pro cable in. This time I bought the cheaper of the two versions. Once again tomorrow I'll try to take some pics to show the difference.

Anyways, I installed the news springs. As I was tightening the 4 bolts I heard a POP. It was a spring sounding POP. I started looking and on the back of the plate that holds the springs in place there is a little circle boss that keeps the springs within a certain location. What had happened was one of the springs was setting on the top of one of those little bosses and as I was tightening the bolts, it had slipped off. That got me thinking maybe I had pulled the clutch lever too hard or let it go too quickly and caused the older springs to jump on the side of this little boss. I know it would take alot of force to have the spring (while compressed) to jump onto the boss, but I'm just trying to figure out what happened. Anyways, I continued to install the springs and I got everything back together. I tried turning the actuating lever with my bare hands and I could actually turn it just a little bit... before I couldn't get it to move at all with my bare hands. So I connected the cable and crossed my fingers and pulled the clutch lever. Believe it or not, it was easier to pull. It still wasn't super easy, but I did notice a big differece. I could now pull the lever with two fingers. As I was installing the springs, I was saying to myself "there is no way these springs are going to make any difference". I mean it was only a little bit out of spec. I'm still not real sure how the clutch works, but I guess those springs need to be within spec.

As I said before, I also got a new cable. I wanted to replace the cable to see if I could make it a little bit better. I installed the cable, and this time I also greased the surfaces between the lever and the perch. I also put a little bit of grease on the very end of the cable where it connects to the lever. I can't really describe the difference between the two cables, so I'll try to take some pics to show the difference. All I can really say is the section where you adjust the cable was on a different side on this new cable. This was actually a good thing because it allowed the cable to bend easier near the top where it goes into the perch. This new cable looks exactly like the original factory cable. After I installed the new cable, I held my breath for a second time while I pulled the lever. And here was my expression :supz: :boogie: :supz: The lever pulled easy as pie. I adjusted the cable out and then took it for a quick test ride to make sure it was adjusted correctly. It was awesome!!! I can now pull the clutch lever with one finger, I can even pull it with my pinky finger (even though that is kinda hard to do) :supz: Oh yeah, I also put in ATF instead of Motor Oil. I don't think this made any difference, but I wanted to go back to what the guy who had the bike before was using.

I'll take some pics tomorrow and show you guys the differences between the parts. I'm also going to let zkdx try the clutch lever to see what he thinks. I know if I heard somebody tell me that replacing the clutch springs fixed this problem, I would tell them that they are full of sh*t. I still think I'm full of sh*t for fixing this problem with just new springs and a cable. :lol: Oh well, I don't care, the problem is gone, and I'm now gone ridin' :partyman:

Thanks guys for all your input. :prayer:
Justin
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Post by Indawoods »

So, more than likely it was a binding spring problem due to it shifting by being out of tolerance.

I'm glad you got that taken care of. :supz:
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Post by jwh02017 »

We went riding today and it's so much easier to clutch the bike now. And the best thing is, I don't have cramps in my hand because of the tight clutch. :supz:

I took some pics today of the springs and cables. In the pics below, the spring on the left is the factory spring and the one on the right is the new replacement.

In the cables pic, if you look at where the red arrow is pointing to on the Bad "Motion Pro" Cable pic, this section is really stiff compared to the other two cables. I'm thinking this might have caused some binding of the cable once the cable was hooked to the actuating rod... since that would apply some force to the cable.

Justin

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Post by canyncarvr »

I understand you did NOT use the 'bad' MP cable with the new springs? It would be good to know (sez me) that the springs and/or the cable caused the problem.

There are commonly six springs per package because that's what a lot of bikes use..six springs. The springs you got FIT a KDX, but they were not packaged specifically FOR the KDX.

Good to hear the 'new' springs were up to spec. As I mentioned earlier I ended up ordering two packages, mixing and matching the 'best' of them to get CLOSE to spec.

Did you have the bike lying flat when you put the clutch together? Probably not. Generally speaking it's much easier to fit the plates, the springs and most everything else in the clutch if the bike is 'flat'. If the bike was upright, it's very easy to get the spring 'off' as you mentioned. You CAN ensure they are correctly seated before you put pressure on them via the 4 pack bolts.

The 'new' springs being wound closer (and thicker coils), the ground 'flat' is larger, too. That makes it easier to hang up that edge on the bolt boss.

Tha chance of the springs climbing up that boss I'd say are as slim to none as you could get unless they were so short as to be loose when the clutch lever was NOT pulled.

The stiffness of the cable housing isn't going to effect cable pull. If it ISN'T stiff, you loose travel on the important part..the inside cable. THEN you end up with no freeplay because you are misadjusting the clutch cable in an attempt to make up for the slop in the housing.

This comes under the heading of, 'Fix What You Know is Broke!. Get it? If you're working on something that has a problem and during that maintenance you find something else wrong, fix it, too! If you find nothing wrong with the piece your mucking around with...but something is out of tolerance with it...fix THAT. It's not so much, 'Fix What You Know Is Causing The Problem!' because you might not KNOW what the cause is.

Sure, it's nice to understand 'stuff' and know that THE thing you did resulted in a resolution.

It doesn't always work that way.

Kind of late now...but you took note of the spring washer and seat Kaw uses on the outside of the clutch pak? Most people don't. They fit a number of ways...one of them is the correct way. I look it up each time to make sure I don't do it incorrectly.

Well...I'm not using them at all now..but when I did use them......

Glad it's all better!

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