Clutch acting strange, what do I do?

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wanaride
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Clutch acting strange, what do I do?

Post by wanaride »

I've got an '03 KDX200 with 750 miles on it. I've never noticed a clutch problem until now...

When the bike is not running and I pull in the clutch, the bike will not roll when in gear. The rear wheel doesn't rotate and I have to "drag" the bike even with the clutch pulled in. I can change gears but neutral is "hard to find" when the bike is off, and I'm missing some shifts lately while riding the bike.

The tranny oil (Gear Saver) has less than 100mi since its last change.

I tried adjusting the lever but that did no good. I'm used to being able to roll the bike (in gear, bike off, clutch pulled in) but now I can't. Is this usual? Any ideas on a problem?
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Post by Indawoods »

(Gear Saver) nuf said. IMHO....
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Post by m0rie »

Do you have the proper amount of free play in the clutch lever/cable assembly?

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Post by Indawoods »

Sorry... just not a big fan of Gear Saver. It may be alright ... it just acted pretty much as you discribe in my bike. Try what Kaw suggests or one of the others that we have talked about on here.... Mainly Mobil 1 synthetic ATF or 15-50W RED CAP. There are others but there is no reason for a clutch to act up like that with 750 miles on it.... Mines proly got 15,000 on it and acts just fine! :grin:
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Post by skipro3 »

The clutch plates should spin fairly easily. When the motor is running and the clutch is pulled in and you are in gear is it hard to roll it backwards?

It sounds like a plate is warped or there is some contamination on the plates.

The clutch is easy to pull, lean the bike over, (That way you don't even need to drain the oil) take the cover off. Unbolt.
With the cover off, you can fiddle with the action and see what's binding up. With my auto clutch, (a modified stock clutch BTW, not a compelely different assembly)I can easily roll the bike in gear or in neutral, running motor or not.
Look at your clutch fluid and see if there's anything swimming in it that shouldn't be as well.
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Post by canyncarvr »

re: 'When the bike is not running and I pull in the clutch, the bike will not roll when in gear'

C'mon guys!!

It's normal!!!

Maybe it used to be easier..but that was also when everything was new and not seated, yet.

No way you are going to do what you're saying and have the bike move easily. Without the clutch spinning there isn't anything to separate the plates...so you have to d-r-a-g it!

Like I said...Normal!!

No worries, mate!!

IMO WARNING!!!

I say the above because my bike has always been like that...and so have a whole lot of other kdxers. It's a common "Oh-No..What's wrong??" post.

Same reason for why it's harder to kick-start it in gear than out of gear. Those plates aren't going to come unstuck just cuz the pressure is off.

Keep in mind that some of the guys 'round here have fancy-schmancy stuff like auto clutches. Their clutches are 'pressure off' most of the time (like sitting in the garage). A 'normal' clutch is 'pressure on' all that time. That's going to make a difference when it comes to comparing what it takes to push bikes around, not running, in gear.

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Post by skipro3 »

canyncarvr wrote: Keep in mind that some of the guys 'round here have fancy-schmancy stuff like auto clutches. Their clutches are 'pressure off' most of the time (like sitting in the garage). A 'normal' clutch is 'pressure on' all that time. That's going to make a difference when it comes to comparing what it takes to push bikes around, not running, in gear.
True. (jelous commentary, but still true) My auto clutch bike always has the effect of the clutch lever pulled in unless the engine rpm's over ride.
But even with my stock clutch, I wouldn't be dragging my tire around the garage like my dog does it's butt on the carpet in the house. There was resistance, sure, but not a complete lock up like is being discribed here. That's normal?
Also, neutral was ALWAYS easier to find with the motor off than running and still is. I think symptom is an adjustment or oil issue.
Missed shifts. I do notice a difference in the quantity with various oils. The worst was with ATF for me. Other guys swear by the stuff. Changing oil in the tranny isn't going to hurt. BTW I also use red cap Mobil 1 (For what that's worth)
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Post by canyncarvr »

My dawg doesn't rub its butt on the carpet......

It's going to make a big difference whether the bike is hot or cold, too. Also the actual space you get between plates with the lever pulled. THAT will depend on how the actuator lever is placed (the 90º part?) how thick (new) the friction plates are and whether there is any warpage at all.

GearSaver is 85W or somesuch, ain't it? That's not helping.

'Natch, if the clutch basket is hammered, it's not going to push real well with the lever pulled/in gear, neither. Just because it has 'only' 750 miles on it doesn't mean the basket isn't notched. Are you a big time clutch-fanner? Yup. That'll do it.
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..oh...I don't have a dog....but my cat don't rub his butt on the carpet, either! ..prolly cuz he spends 99% of his life outside! ;)

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Post by KDXGarage »

Any chance the cable is binding or not being allowed full travel? Any chance it is dirty?
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Post by skipro3 »

I'm betting on the notched basket. It's easy to spot and you can get one or two files worth of life out of it as well. Let us know what you find.
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Post by KDXGarage »

What weight Gear Saver did you use? Have you used it since it was new?
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Post by canyncarvr »

Gee. No one is agreeing with me.

Too bad. Cuz I'm right. My humble opinion and all that....

Now...I'm assuming a few things (that's always safe, ain't it?):

The bike is not an oldie, so the only way the basket would be toast is if it was abused pretty darn bad. Wana knows whether that is true or not.

The bike is not an oldie, so chances of the actuator arm being out of adjustment (again, the 90º part..changed by adding/removing shim washers under the 'throwout bearing' in the clutch) are pretty slim. It would get out of adjustment after excessive friction plate wear (too thin).

The bike is not an oldie, so the clutch perch/lever shouldn't be worn out. Neither should cable lubrication (lack of it) be a problem.

You could try this. After a good ride and the bike is warmed up, cinch the clutch lever down with a ty-wrap. Push it around a little (maybe up onto your trailer). Check the drag on the rear wheel somewhat later after it's cooled down. I'll bet the resistance felt will be considerably less than if you merely pulled the clutch lever and checked rolling resistance after it had been sitting in your garage overnight.

A lot of trouble to probably prove nothing is wrong with it.

If it shifts fine, neutral isn't a hunt-n-peck repeated effort to find...I wouldn't worry about it.

But then, I wouldn't run GearSaver, either! ;)

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Post by Indawoods »

You are right CC... but everytime I say that someone disagrees with me. :? Clutch drag is a fact of life with the KDX. I can start mine in gear... but it is no easy task.. she jumps a little, but I can. I really don't think it's anything to worry about, but I would ditch the Gear Saver.
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Post by KDXGarage »

It does sound like it may be normal action. I have to rock back and forth a little to find neutral when it is not cranked.

canyncarvr, Gear Saver comes in 75w, 80w and 85w. The weights they list are based on gear oil not motor oil, so it may look odd (if you were thinking that). Bel-Ray's website says their 80w is like 10w-40.

I have run Bel-Ray Gear Saver 80w in both of my bikes and never had any trouble.

No need for another "what's your favorite oil" thread. I saw plenty of that elsewhere. We all have our favorite brands of oil, beer, toothpaste, etc. and most all are fine.
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Post by KDXer »

I'm with Skipro ATF type F Valvoline is crappy, in my box also IMO. I've ended up sticking with Valvoline 15w40 I think and I lost all the missed shifts, no neutral and notchy feel I had with ATF. Gearsaver Ive never used but heard plenty of bad rumours about. Oh Jason I drink Carlton Cold and use Colgate... :rolleyes:
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Post by wanaride »

Thanks guys. I'm not a big clutch-fanner so I don't suspect a REAL problem. I don't remember the bike acting this way, but hey, I'm still a newbie and for all I know, this is NORMAL behavior. Well, normal for some and not for others...

I plan to take it out soon and really pay close attention to shifting issues.

FWIW, the actuator arm still seems to be in the 80-90 degree range IAW the service manual, and I've adjusted the clutch lever in both directions and it didn't matter. The actuator arm is moving and there is resistance, which tells me the clutch is doing something. Fluid level is fine and there doesn't appear to be any dirt in the lever. I can't remember the weight of the oil but it is listed for 2-strokes. Yes, I'm clueless and have no real idea (yet) how the clutch works...can anyone help me here?

I did start (recently) downshifting without the clutch 'cause I read about it in Bales/Semics "Pro Motocross & Off-Road Riding Techniques" book...no problem with that I hope?
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Post by skipro3 »

I think the only real difference of opinion CC and I have on the matter is that he is saying it is normal that your bike should drag a locked wheel around when in gear and the clutch pulled in, and I am saying that it should roll but with some resistance.
Possible causes to this are speculation on everyone's part until that clutch is opened up and inspected. Sooner or later, you will have to crack open that side cover and figger out how a clutch works. Don't be frightened, we've all been there ourselves the first time. Have the shop manual at your side and know we can help you out if anything comes up.
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Post by cicone »

I agree that it's normal for the clutch to drag---a lot, based on what I've read and in my case personal experience with an older model. I usually get the bike rolling before slipping it in gear the first time---don't like the way it will just slam into gear. As for rolling around in gear with the clutch in, forget it! Starting in gear, too difficult. my $.02 . FWIW, I run straight 30 wt in the tranny. Last batch was Penzoil, I think??---whatever is around. Change oil every 2-3 rides.
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Post by canyncarvr »

I think Ski and I agree. The 'dragging around locked up' part is a bit on the severe side of what I'd call 'normal.' Maybe on smooth concrete with a bit of sand on it? On wet clay?

Jason: Yeah. I understand the weight issue 'tween gear/motor oil. Well, sorta. I do think 80W gear is a bit heavier than your one-each motor oil. 90W sure the heck is!!

re: ATF-F
You mean the oil designed for Fords, with friction modifiers added (more stick, not more slip) to make their smaller converters work?

Well, that and organic clutch material.

ATF maybe. ATF-F? Don't think so.

....or do I have that backwards? Don't think that either.

re: downshifting without the clutch.

Most of my shifting is without the clutch. Obviously there is a whole lot of leeway from side of that scenario to the other, 'eh? Any clutchless shifting down under much load (call it heavy, severe, a 'lot' whatever) is certainly not doing the shifting assembly any good....or anything else for that matter.

Saying, 'I shift without the clutch' doesn't include slamming the pee-wah out of the shift lever at 9kRPM whilst screeing down a 40º hill. ..or up such for that matter.

How does the clutch work? If you have a manual look at the breakdown of the basket/plates. If you don't, look it up at buykawasaki.com.

You have two types of plates stacked atop each other..metal (usually steel..maybe not) smooth ones and friction material faced ones. Each type has fingers on them that engage part of the basket/hub assy. The smooth plates have fingers on the inner diameter, the friction plates have fingers on the outer diameter.

When the plates are squeezed together (spring pressure applied) the inner fingers of the one and the outer fingers of the other are 'connected.'

Loosen that pressure (pull the lever), and they aren't 'connected' anymore.

One plate-finger set is driven by the crankshaft, the other plate-finger set drives the transmission.

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Post by skipro3 »

to continue with what CC is saying here:
If you take the clutch plates off the motorcycle and just have the two baskets, (inner hub and outer basket) bolted up, and the bike in neutral,the inner hub will spin freely of the outer basket. If it hangs or drags on anything, then find out where and fix it. On my bike, the hub rubbed slightly and caused drag. I worked the contact area with some emery cloth and it spins freely. I included photos in my gallery showing this. Yes it's with the modified auto clutch, but the part I speak of is not part of the modification. Notice on the first photo that there is a large recessed area that the splined shaft and washer fit into. This nests with the complement part on the hub as shown in photo 2. When tightened down, the inner hub should not contact the basket in any way and spin freely if in neutral (photos 3 and 4). If anyone wants, I can e-mail the full instruction sheet for installing the auto clutch. It's a HUGE file with the photos though so have a fast network connection.

Anyway, after the clutch plates are installed, the ONLY contact between the inner hub and the basket will be the clutch plates as shown in photos 5 and 6. Notice the locking fingers on the plates determine wether the hub (conntected to the transmission) or the basket (connected to the crank) turn those particular plates. The plates with the fiberous materials are connected to the crank via the basket and the steel plates are connected to the transmission. Once the clutch is fully assembled, (no photos of a stock clutch for this, sorry) then the spring tension is what forces these two types of plates together and allows the crank to turn the transmission. Type of oil and adjustment of the cam that works the spring tension are the only things that can affect the pressure and release thereof. Oil properties will have huge consequences in the ability of these plates to bind or to release when desired IF the cable and cam work properly to overcome the spring tensions. Hope this helps more than confuses.
Last edited by skipro3 on 04:22 pm Jan 11 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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