top end

[rollerman]

i will doing the top end on my 03 220 with a wiseco piston what gaskets will i need to do job correctly? also i only have 1/2 drive torque wrenches what size should i use 1/4 or 3/8 drive the snap on guy comes on fridays so i can pick up one..
thank you for your time
tom

[Ryan]

if you are asking what torque wrench to buy you can keep the one you have and go buy a 1/2 to 3/8 reducer. That way you can use your 3/8 sockets on your 1/2 inch torque wrench. I just picked one up at sears for $5.99.

[Indawoods]

DO NOT USE A 1/2"

Pick up a 3/8" torque wrench... and a complete topend gasket set....

[Ryan]

why not a 1/2, im just wondering.

[Indawoods]

Too stout for the small amount of torque that is involved. It is not sensitive enough for the lower values to be accurate.

[bradf]

Cometic makes a great gasket set for about $35

Wait till you try to torque the cylinder bolts using a box end wrench. Do a search here to get the skinny on what to do.

[bradf]

here it is
http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... der+torque

[rollerman]

thanks guys i'll pick up a 3/8 drive fri. i will also order the wrench from motoin pro..
thanks again
tom

[Colorado Mike]

most bike shops have that wrench. Seems like nearly all modern bikes need it. Might save you the shipping cost.

[soldsoul4foos]

great link btw. much appreciated.

my question for the original poster is...how much work was involved in disassembling, reassembling, and cleaning the kips sytem? maybe there's a link on that :)

thanks!

i'm looking at replacing my stock piston with wiseco here real soon as well. Then (well, maybe during) my plans are to send the carb out to RB for the mod, and install new reeds.

bill w.--maine

[Mark W]

Taking apart the KIPS and cleaning it is no big deal. As has been mentioned many times, make sure you know that the KIPS actuator shaft nut is reverse threaded. You will wreck something if you don't know this.

Keep the left side of the KIPS pieces in a seperate bag from the right so that you won't have to worry about which one goes where later on.

Before taking things apart, examine how the KIPS is "timed" by noticing the little dots, hack marks, anddifferent gears so that upon reassembly you will know how it goes back together.

Finally, befopre taking the whole KIPS apart, look through the exhaust port and notice how the KIPS operates. Notice how the valves turn when you manually trun the gears. This too will help upon reassembly.

It is very easy to do and the good thing is that should you get stuck, there are many people here who will help you out. Sure helped me.

Mark

[KDXer]

how much work was involved in disassembling, reassembling, and cleaning the kips sytem? maybe there's a link on that :)

HOWS THIS ??

[soldsoul4foos]

omg that's great. Thanks!

[canyncarvr]

1/2" torque wrench? Forget it.

3/8" torque wrench? You might want to forget THAT, too depending on its torque range.

An INCH POUND wrench is your best bet. Head bolts run around 216in/lb.

Brian's website (above) does show it...be sure to support the activation shaft when you remove the LHThreaded nut. If you don't, you WILL ruin something.

You may not be able to see the timing marks on the KIPS parts if your's are gunked up. Speaking of which...I've never quite gotten why so many KIPS are said to be in such a mess. The pics referenced above for example...what a goober. After years of use, mine have no carbon nowhere, move without a hitch, snap back with a nice sharp 'TICK'. Anyway............anyone want to tell me how GREAT their oil is?

DO as Mark suggests..take a look up the exhaust port to get an idea of what things look like before you take it apart. The marks on the gears are paired teeth with a bit of the top ground off.

It's not hard to put it together wrong...many ways to do THAT and only ONE way to do it right. Make sure it's all good before you put your cylinder on. If you have any question, please ask!!

A couple of other pointers..maybe you know, maybe you don't.

Arrow on the piston crown to the front. No, NOT everyone does it right.
Never reuse wristpin clips.
Stuff some rags in the crankcase ASAP to keep 'stuff' out of it..including that clip that goes '...Uh-oh.....'
Clip openings to 12 or 6 o'clock.
On reassy, put the piston in the cylinder on the bench, One clip in. Leaving the pinhole accessible, lower the assy onto the rod.

Putting the piston on the rod first gets you into trouble fitting the rings into the cylinder.

When you put the piston in, guide the rings 'through' the intake port area. Push them in slightly as they go by to keep them from hanging on the port edges.

Solds: You have a 220? If you're sending your carb to RB it's a good time to send your head, too. The 220 head configuration is not at all consistent (the 200 is better). Note your altitude, your fuel choice..send 'em both in. Save some shipping, get neat stuff!!

[rollerman]

thanks for all the great info guys
tom

[GS]

My '99 220 is undergoing what I believe to be it's 1st top end overhaul. I have a few questions, the answers to which might just help me get this all figured out.
Cylinder measured 2.718" (yup, both ways) where the manual recommends...16mm (5/8") down from the top.
Further down, near the intake port bridging I am seeing 2.721". The book makes no mention of what I should see way down there, but this area is distinctly shiny/polished...compared to elsewhere on the walls.
Question: How can I tell if the electrofusion is too thin? There are no sharp edges, no ragged areas...just a few small vertical scratches. I can't hang up a fingernail on any of the scratches.
The new piston will be a Wiseco and I would like to know what clearance I am looking for between it and the cylinder. The book says .00374 - .00413 for the stock piston.

Thanks for any help or guidance,
Greg

[canyncarvr]

Generally, starting a new thread with a new question will get you a lot better response...folks will see it.

The coating is too thin if it's gone. I've not heard of it ever just wearing through..it generally tears, rips, peels or something of that sort.

The Wiseco comes in only one size. It is not alpha-grouped (A,B,C, D etc.) like the Pro-X. If you happen to have an 'A' cylinder (the smallest) your concern regarding piston-to-cylinder clearance is well warranted.

Others will disagree....have disagreed.

Interesting that in Wiseco's own documentation (a .pdf containing 'cylinder prep' notes), it doesn't say a thing about piston-to-cylinder clearance.

That is very helpful 'eh?

Eric Gorr wrote:

The danger is that if you try to put a D piston in an A cylinder the piston to cylinder wall clearance will be so tight that a seizure might occur.

That from his website, documented here.

Check that thread...I don't know how you're getting your measurements. The three digit precision does cause me to wonder..........

Here are a couple of generally accepted 'facts':

A forged piston generally requires a bit more clearance than a cast piston. A forged piston has a 'grain' to the metal; when it warms up it tends to 'grow' more.

The better piston-to-cylinder fit you have, the more power you will make. Not a huge difference when your talking about fractions of a thousandth of an inch.

The tightest part of the cylinder is of more concern than the point it is the most loose.


People that know (Eric Gorr..on his Forward Motion Website) caution that a Pro-X needs at least .002" (from here).

Considering basic forged piston facts, I wouldn't consider putting a Wiseco in anything less than a solid .003-.005". The .003 is iffy.

I would suggest vetting that WAG/IMO with a knowledgeable mechanic. Oh...those are tough to find!!

Good luck!

[GS]

CC: Thanks for the response.. I'll start a new thread next time to improve the exposure.

The cyl and piston are marked "C" (the largest?)

I hunted the Wiseco site looking for info, to no avail

"The three digit precision does cause me to wonder......."
Well, here's what I did....used an inside expanding-type gauge to "fix" the distance between walls at a number of locations(but specifically at 5/8" down from the top, as per my manual) and then measured the span with a Starrett 2-3" Micrometer, which was then confirmed with a digital caliper....and they agreed!!!.....then I just reported what the darn things said

Cautionary Note: this expanding inside gauge (Chinese manuf.) is spring-loaded and even with the springy-thingies released (snapping outward) within 1/4" of the walls the damn things put very small indentations in the coating/wall...just how frickin thin and soft is that coating anyway??? Now, if I were that coating..guess where I would start to fail..."hey, how about right over there, right next to those convenient little starting points" CRAP!

Just a warning that others may choose to heed ...or ignore..

That .003-.005 sounds about right to me and the .005 just sounds mo better. I warm it up, but don't want to worry forevermore about seizing.

Good mechanics? Well I tripped on over to the local engine-building machine shop that gets great reviews by all, and.. they actually install new plating in-house, to see what they would recommend regarding re-plating. Asked if I could have someone knowledgable take a look at the cyl. Well, the bloody pierced-everywhere phone-answering "secretary" almost, yup, almost, had it up in front of her face before she spouted..."Yup needs re-plating...that'll be $275 + $40 (US$271)to diamond-hone" "Geez...could you look at it first...please? Maybe measure it too?

So much for their value to me.......Never fails that I can't EVER seem to get competent help. There is, despite all the pitfalls, better info here on this site than pretty much anywhere else.

Question: What to use to break the cylinder glazing with..emery, scotchbrite(color) what has worked for others? (don't own a hone that I would dare use)

Interesting link by the way...lots of good stuff to read about
Thanks again, eh?

Greg

[Indawoods]

Just use a scotch-brite pad.... that's all anyone ever uses.... well, that is if'n they don't want to damage the coating.

[KDXer]

I used GREEN scotchbrite.