KIPs question

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ronopolis
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KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

I introduced myself a month or so ago -- mid-life crisis -- I'm new to motorcycles, new to dirt bikes, new to riding, new to non-trivial mechanical stuff. I bought a rough '99 KDX 220 and I tore it down to the frame. I also did a top end -- resurfaced the cylinder, cleaned up KIPS, new piston/rings etc. I have a friend helping me who has a 200, so I'm not doing this blind/retarded.

This weekend I got the bike 85% back together, enough I could kick it over. Many small miracles -- it started up first time (3rd kick -- I have video!!). And now it starts 1st kick every time. The engine sounds great, the few minutes I've run it. I don't have rear wheel, brakes... little stuff like that yet. :grin:

My issue is the KIPS system is not working. If you watch this video (you can jump out to 1:45) you can easily see how tell if the KIPS is working. When I do the same test, I crank the engine, even go almost wide open, and the KIPS gear just barely moves a little if at all. It barely rotates 1/2 a tooth.

I need some help figuring this out. KDXrider KIPS detectives, don't fail me now!

I cleaned all the KIPS parts, and lubed them before installing. I spent way too much time getting it all back together, but eventually everything was in, and I could rotates pieces by hand and watch it all move. I think it is all in correctly. My one clue -- when I installed the KIPS rod with the little O-ring (Part# 46102-1384) I thought it felt very tight. It was hard to get it in all the way. I tried this dry at first (to practice) and my friend said it would be easier once it was all lubed. It was a bit easier, but it still seemed harder than I expected. And after final assembly with lube, I could manipulate the entire mechanism and watch everything turn. I could see the two exhaust valve thinggys rotate. But I kept thinking... is there too much resistance. The only resistance in the entire KIPS system that I could see was the KIPS rod with the O-ring.

Any thoughts on this?

A few questions:
  • 1) I assume it is OK to run the engine, this isn't going to hurt anything, just no working KIPS.
    2) I also assume if I figure this out "Ron, you need to change blah-de-blah" I'm going to have to pull the engine.
    3) Also, let's say in a few days I have a clue and want to try something. Won't I most likely have to pull the cylinder head? Can I re-use that gasket, or is that not worth the risk?
Appreciate any help I can get here.

ps: Here is the video of first start. I took the video assuming the bike would fall on me, catch fire etc. It was for insurance purposes. When it started I almost didn't know what to do!
rparrish08
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KIPs question

Post by rparrish08 »

Pull the kips actuator cover on the right side of the cylinder behind the header pipe. See if the claw is meshed with the gear. If not, does the actuator rod spin freely? It shouldn't. There is also a retainer pin and scew that are inserted into the right side cover. If these parts are missing than the claw will not mesh with the gear.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

Can you point out with part numbers from this picture exactly which parts you are talking about?

I'm pretty sure I had every part from this diagram, but curious exactly which parts you are talking about. Thanks.
rparrish08
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Re: KIPs question

Post by rparrish08 »

You're looking in the wrong spot. The parts are on the right side cover components diagram. Parts no. 92043A and 220. I tried to copy the link but I'm on my phone and it's not cooperating.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7
Adamnb1
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KIPs question

Post by Adamnb1 »

1) I assume it is OK to run the engine, this isn't going to hurt anything, just no working KIPS.
2) I also assume if I figure this out "Ron, you need to change blah-de-blah" I'm going to have to pull the engine.
3) Also, let's say in a few days I have a clue and want to try something. Won't I most likely have to pull the cylinder head? Can I re-use that gasket, or is that not worth the risk?


1. yes
2. not necessarily!
3. I always use a fresh gasket and wouldn't want to risk getting it all back together and having a leak

this is what's being referred to here:
http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u45 ... 082144.jpg

In that picture, the actuator shaft has the claw on the end, fastened via the reverse threaded nut that I'm sure you are familiar with. If everything seemed to be working when you tested it manually, the problem is likely here, or where the actuator shaft connects to the kips governor in the right side case.
As was said, if the claw is disconnected, you should not be able to spin the actuator shaft freely. If you can, if you can, there is a problem at the governor connection.

Perhaps you should post a pic of your right side claw/shaft-gear connection. Did you use a manual to verify it's aligned properly?
Also, is there a chance that you have the exhaust valve 'open' (pulled out) when at rest, rather than closed?
Last edited by Adamnb1 on 06:36 pm Apr 25 2016, edited 1 time in total.
Adamnb1
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KIPs question

Post by Adamnb1 »

Also, I recall my right side rod being harder to get in than I expected and I had similar concerns that something was binding and/or it would be to much resistance to function correctly. This wan't the case and it worked fine in the end
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

Thanks Adamnb1 and rparrish08, that gets me in the right ballpark. Yes, very familiar with that actuator and the left hand thread etc.. I did understand using the little dots to make sure it was aligned. And I made sure the correct exhaust valve teeth lined up with the dot on the rod. But I could have made any number of mistakes. I will take this all apart when I get home from work today and take a look, take pictures.
ohgood
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ohgood »

ronopolis wrote:Thanks Adamnb1 and rparrish08, that gets me in the right ballpark. Yes, very familiar with that actuator and the left hand thread etc.. I did understand using the little dots to make sure it was aligned. And I made sure the correct exhaust valve teeth lined up with the dot on the rod. But I could have made any number of mistakes. I will take this all apart when I get home from work today and take a look, take pictures.
coat everything in two stroke oil. doesn't matter what brand, it will get washed away when you run it. the important part is to not bind/catch/rip any of the seals along the horizontal shaft. make it swim in oil.

congrats and welcome, it's a really fun bike :)
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

I took off the KIPS cover that covers the left hand screw part. And I could see the other side behind the large round cover. At first I was confused 'cuz the 'dots' were not in the right place. But then I could see it was because the KIPs was stuck open. I could easily roate it back to "closed." I rotated it back to closed, and all the dots were correctly aligned with KIPS rod teeth etc. It all seems correct. And there is some two stroke oil floating around. So I left these covers open, started the bike. As soon as I gave it some RPMs, I could see the KIPS activate and start to open. But it never comes back to the closed position.

So earlier when I said "KIPS doesn't work" I didn't realize it was already stuck open. That is why I didn't see any movement.

So, this means.... ??
rparrish08
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Re: KIPs question

Post by rparrish08 »

Does the claw come off the gear freely? It shouldn't. Pull the pipe for better access. Of the rod moves up and down then your retainer pin is either missing or broken. If the claw maintains contact with the gear and the kips still doesn't close then you may have a broken governor spring.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

The claw does not come off the gear.

If the KIPs is stuck open (like after I ran the engine), I can grab the claw and rotate it back to close position. I have to hold it firm and push it back. But when it is closed, I cannot just hold the claw and rotate the KIPs to open. Can't get enough leverage

But what I can do is go to the other side, and I can put a T-wrench on the bolt that is holding the shaft, and from there I can easily rotate the mechanism Open to Closed to Open to Closed. It seems to just rotate the correct amount, enough to open/close. With the wrench I have enough leverage it is very easy to just flip it open/closed.

I have the shop manual and see a description of the governor mechanism on the first few pages. But where in the manual are the details? And what are the part numbers for the retainer pin and governor spring?

I think we are getting close. This is one part of the bike (one of the few parts) I didn't touch. Is this easy? Difficult? Inexpensive???
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

Just double checking, we assume it is the pin, the spring, or both. The pin in question is parts number 92043a and 220.


and the spring is part number 92081


Given the KIPS activates, but never returns, I'd guess the problem is the spring is broken, unhooked or whatever. Over time can it just loose its springiness? I plan on digging into to this tonight (little intimidated about taking this much of the engine apart, but here we are). When I get in there, if the spring isn't obviously broken or unhooked, any suggestions on what I should to to "test" it? I don't have a new spring yet to compare. I don't want to order parts until I see what is wrong.
rparrish08
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Re: KIPs question

Post by rparrish08 »

As long as the shaft doesn't move up and down then the retainer pin isn't the problem. My guess is the governor spring but it is only a guess. Pulling the engine cover is
pretty straight forward. Don't stress over it too much.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

OK, everyone put on their thinking caps. Remember, the KIPS moves to the Open position when I open the throttle, but does not return.

I'm super slow doing everything, but I removed the covers and got the governor out. Here it is.
Image

I can press down on the white gear and there is a lot of resistance from the spring. I have to hold it with both hands and then press down. When I release the gear instantly moves back to position.

One thing I noticed the first time I pressed down on the white gear, the little pin holding it to the rod seems way to little. It almost looks like a wristwatch lug pin. If I press down on the white gear, this pin tends to fall right out.
Image

Is this the correct pin? Or did someone lose the original and throw this in? For comparison, here is the pin on the other side.

Image

And here are two shots of the KIPS actuator pin.

Image

Image

Does this provide any clues to any one? Is the small pin an issue? Any other picture or information I can provide? Appreciate your help.
rparrish08
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Re: KIPs question

Post by rparrish08 »

Everything looks to be in working order. Does the kips gear rotate smoothly? Was the governor pin seated in the governor channel when you took it apart? Are you sure the claw isn't lifting off of the gear? If the shaft retainer pin is missing it will allow the shaft to move up and down. Thus, the claw could be opening the valve then lifting off of the gear prior to closing it. The reason I suggest this is because i forgot to reinstall the pin after a rebuild once and was left with a valve that would open but wouldn't close.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7
rparrish08
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Re: KIPs question

Post by rparrish08 »

So I've reread some of your previous post on this thread that I missed earlier. It sounds like you may have to much resistance in the kips assembly (for whatever reason). if the claw opens the valve, maintains contact with the gear and doesn't close the valve (given that it is applying clockwise torque to the gear) then in MY opinion it would seem as if your problem is with the kips assembly (valve assembly within the jug). I am FAR from the best bike mechanic on this site so please don't take my word as gospel.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

I'm pretty sure the claw has never come off the gear. By the shaft retainer pin, do you mean this, parts 92043A and 220? What I have there that I can see is a stripped 220 screw. So I haven't forced it off yet. I don't understand hos this pen works -- if the KIPS actuator rod is going down the sleeve, what is the pin doing, just pressing up against it?

Image

I don't know if the governor was in its place properly, or if the pin was in the governor properly. The governor just kind of fell out of place while I was pulling the case off.

One thing I tried, if I put the governor back in place like this

Image

I can put my palm on the upper white gear and pull up on the bottom with my fingers. And I can see everything rotates properly, and the spring is pulling very hard. As soon as I let up the KIPS rod rotates back. It all seems to work correctly.

One theory is whoever did the hack job using the too small pin on the white gear did not put it all back together. Maybe the pin on the KIPS rod was not correctly in the slot on the governor. While speculation.

Except for the too small replacement pin on the white gear, I can't find anything wrong. If it didn't cost me gaskets every time I try, I'm almost inclined to put it all back together properly and see if it works. But I don't want to button it up if there are more things to look for or try.
rparrish08
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Re: KIPs question

Post by rparrish08 »

As long as the gasket is in one piece its fine. Yea 92043A was the pin I was talking about and it sounds like you have it. Your governor assembly seems to be in working order. It sounds like you have something binding in the kips assembly.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

rparrish08 wrote:It sounds like you have something binding in the kips assembly.
Tonight I'm going to put the lower end back together, now that I see the spring and pins etc. are working correctly. My Hail Mary is that it was put back together wrong last time (by the person who put the tiny pin in the governor), and now it will all be seated correctly and magically work. I'll be able to tell right away by manually opening the KIPS and seeing if it closes by itself.
ronopolis
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Re: KIPs question

Post by ronopolis »

I ran home at lunch and put the lower end back together. With the claw not touching the gear for the KIPS mechanism, it seems to behave correctly. You can rotate it, and it instantly jump back (the spring is working). All hooked up, if I move the KIPS mechanism to open, it will not rotate back to closed. I can manually rotate it back, it isn't stuck or anything, but the spring does not exert enough force.

So yeah, I think my KIPS mechanism is just too tighty or bindy. Looks like I get to pull the engine... :neutral:
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