1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

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1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Shadowdev » 03:25 pm Sep 01 2014

Hi Everyone,
First, I’d like to thank those who are willing to help, much appreciated.
I have a 1997 KDX 200. Great bike overall.
I’ve included a video link of the bike and progress so far. Please take a look and feel free to comment.
Note: I used the wrong terminology for the mechanism which catches the shift turret, it's a 'shifter pawl', Not ‘shifter fork’.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KTbRU0pZm40#t=226

Problem:
Cannot shift. During a ride, I shifted into first gear and then could not shift to neutral, second, etc…
I’ve opened the clutch side, removed the basket and have found some metal part fragments in the bottom of the case (shown in video). While the clutch basket is scratched up a bit, nothing on the clutch side seems broken; However the shifter pawl does not catch the shift drum turret, so either the shifter shaft and pawl are out of alignment or the turret shaft is out of alignment. Also, using a ratchet on the turret bolt to scroll through the gears does not always go smoothly with what seem to be something binding, most likely the rest of the broken parts in the transmission case.
Any insight as to what the broken part(s) may be, advice or help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
SD

Forward to 3:45 for basket removal and metal part fragments discovered.
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1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby kx200 » 08:29 pm Sep 01 2014

Are the pieces steel or aluminum?
In your video it looks like you are missing the small spring Kawasaki calls (SPRING-CHANGE LEVER 92081-076) that little spring is what keep the the shifter engaged to the drum.
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Shadowdev » 09:48 pm Sep 01 2014

Hi Kx200, Thank you for the reply.

The parts are steel.
The spring is there....difficult to see in the video but it's there for sure.
I can see every part listed in this parts list reference: http://www.cmsnl.com/kawasaki-1997-h3-kdx200-north-america_model11794/partslist/E1370.html#results

I also disassembled the clutch basket and did not find anything that looked broken.
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Deseret Rider » 10:19 pm Sep 01 2014

That was a very good presentation Shadow Rider. I'm only guessing---so take this for what it is worth. It looks like there are two springs in your diagram---and I'd guess that somehow the shifter mechanism must move forward to actually engage the shifter pawl-----so I'm thinking that the 92081 spring is involved in that function---probably working against an eccentric which also involves the 13236 part.
Are you sure that 92081 spring is in place--and hooked up at both ends? Like KDX 200 mentions---if it's there we don't see it in the video.
Since I'm guessing at all this---it's only a theory and does not explain the broken pieces that you found----so be sure to educate us on how you make the fix when you get that done----good luck.
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Shadowdev » 12:29 am Sep 02 2014

Hi Desert Rider,
Yes, there are two springs. One for the shift turret 'Position Lever': PN:13236 which as the first picture shows is present and functioning. The second 'change lever' spring PN:92081 is also present as shown in the second picture. You can even see the spring under tension and it does look like it's connected...

If I'm honest with myself, in reflection of this post, it seems I'm really just looking for any answer or Excuse NOT to split the case, but my gut says differently...

Whaddy think?

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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Tedh98 » 05:31 am Sep 02 2014

Edit - I originally said 92081 wasnt hooked up properly. I was thinking of something else and didnt realize it until I looked at the actual assembly.

This is how mine looks, you have to zoom in on it:
Image

You can get the gear change lever out without splitting the cases. You just need to remove the larger cover to get to it. But wash the bike first.

Now with the metal pieces and splitting the cases . . .
Last edited by Tedh98 on 09:31 am Sep 02 2014, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Julien D » 09:20 am Sep 02 2014

That little collared washer (92027) has caused a similar problem for me. The flanged part must be facing the right way, or everything doesn't line up correctly. Is that flanged washer even present?
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1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Deseret Rider » 09:55 am Sep 02 2014

Shadow Rider Comparing Tech 97's picture with yours----His shows the anchor end of the spring hooked up while your picture almost looks like you have a spring inside a spring? Something wrong there for sure. Julian's comment makes sense as that washer must provide the eccentric effect which allows the shifter to pivot enough to catch the pawl?

There is still the mystery of the broken parts-----let us know what you find there?
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby 6 Riders » 11:49 am Sep 02 2014

You know that you're gonna have to split the cases right? Symptoms point to a bent shift fork, but cool be that the mystery piece is floating around and causing the problems that you are having. Either way, you need to get in there and, at the least, make sure there is no more metal inside there.
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Julien D » 01:00 pm Sep 02 2014

Take that inner clutch cover off and you should be able to better see what's going on, or where that piece came from. I think it's unlikely that it came over from the trans side into the clutch side, but it's possible.....
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1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Deseret Rider » 03:44 pm Sep 02 2014

Like some of the others, I don't think there is a need just yet to split the cases----doubt that there is a problem in the tranny itself------but I've been wrong before. Anyway---let's take this one step at a time---
First, lets check out that spring and see if we can get it shifting


PS we all learn from these discussions ---and the excellent presentation and pictures being demonstrated here---This forum is a great source of information and help and we all benefit.
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1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby scheckaet » 03:58 pm Sep 02 2014

have you done a top end recently? i.e messed with the kips actuator shaft?
if the pin was broken it can get into the clutch assy and get you stuck in gear, that 's what happened to me anyway...
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby bufftester » 12:42 am Sep 03 2014

The KIPS pin is definitely something you want to check while you have the cover off, but it doesn't look like it's involved in this shifting issue. Watching the video near the end where you manipulate the change shaft it appears that the change lever spring (92081) is not anchored at the rear end of the change shaft (13161). The change shaft is actually 2 pieces, the fork shaped part on the back side, and the front plate which is attached to the shift shaft. The change lever spring is there to pull the fork shaped portion forward enough to grab the pawls on the turret, the fork end travels down and the turret rotates. when you release the shift lever the fork end rotates back up and the pawl pushes it back to allow it to return to center. The change lever spring then pulls it forward enough to be ready to engage the pawls on teh next shift. Pull the inner clutch cover off (after you clean up the engine) and I bet you'll find that either the spring has broken, or the anchor point has (which may account for the FOD you found). Regardless, if your shifting feels notchy or rough you may end up having to split the cases and remove the rest of the debris from the tranny side (my fingers are crossed for you!)
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Shadowdev » 01:54 am Sep 03 2014

Wow Everyone,
Thank you for the Great Input and thoughtful replies. I really appreciate the outpouring of support; you've got me motivated to continue... thank you very much.

Please find new images & video below.

As you’ve instructed, I’ve cleaned the bike & removed the outer clutch case cover. Lo & behold as scheckaet has said... the KIPS governor lever / pin was indeed broken off the actuator shaft and I can only assume the fragments found were part of that; but where’s the ‘pin’ part of it??. With that known at least I understand what is broken.

With regards to the gear shift pawl mechanism, I followed your instructions and removed the gear shifter foot lever from the left side and pushed the shift shaft & pawl assembly as far out the right side as possible. I actuated the spring loaded pawl until, whala, something (metal debris) cleared away and the pawl plate slid forward another 3/16 of an inch, thus now easily reaching the shift turret and working properly.

So get this, I’m now at the point where the shifter pawl is good to go, I know that the KIPS governor lever/pin is broken and needs replacing (which is simple to do), AND I STILL MAY NEED TO SPLIT THE CASE (Thanks 6Riders ;)) to locate the rest of that part (governor lever pin) which is missing and ‘something’ seems to be binding in the tranny. Aaaannnngggg… Man-O-Man…

Here’s where I’m confused. When the bike is in any gear the rear wheel spins without any problem, no binding, grinding, or anything that would indicate loose metal fragments in the gear set. Yet, when I advance through the gears at the turret, while spinning the rear wheel, it does not always shift smoothly. Is it supposed to?

I’m just about to get the magnet wand out and give that case a good reaming through the oil drain plug & clutch side ports, and see what I can find. There are several great pictorials here (Case Splitting) and youtube vids of cases being split which would help me know just what I should be ‘feeling around’ for.

Whaddyall Think??

Where should I purchase the KIPS part… dealer?

Many Thanks Again,
SD



Picture of broken KIPS governor lever
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Tedh98 » 05:47 am Sep 03 2014

The right thing to do is to split the cases. I think you found three large fragments of metal and enough small stuff to jam up the shift mechanism and still no sign of the pin. If it were me, I would also want to inspect the gears to make sure none of them are chipped.

Or you could try to flush the cases and hope you get all the debris out. The risk is that you dont get everything out and do further damage.

I always go with ronayers.com. Even if one or two parts are higher, my overall total is always lower with them. And as of a month ago they still had free shipping on orders over $89. It takes them a couple of days to get the parts in and then I have them in two days or less.
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby newbbewb » 08:41 pm Sep 03 2014

I'm with tedh98. you have the engine this far apart, just do it. Putting it back together and seeing what you get could cost you a lot, in either time and money, or both.

If that pin found it's way into gears during a ride, it's game over.
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby bufftester » 12:33 am Sep 04 2014

+1 to shekaet...the sneaky KIPS pin strikes again!
Have to chime in with everyone else and say split the cases. It's a 97 (17 years old) so great time to check your mains and crank/top end and clean out the tranny. Last place you want to be when that missing pin lodges itself in the gear cluster is bombing down some run at 45 mph 15 miles from the nearest help :blink:
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Deseret Rider » 12:49 am Sep 04 2014

bufftester wrote:+1 to shekaet...the sneaky KIPS pin strikes again!
Have to chime in with everyone else and say split the cases. It's a 97 (17 years old) so great time to check your mains and crank/top end and clean out the tranny. Last place you want to be when that missing pin lodges itself in the gear cluster is bombing down some run at 45 mph 15 miles from the nearest help :blink:



Yup! if bufftester says it's time---it's time. I have one question? If that pin escapes from it's intended position will it always fall into the transmission---I.E. between the cases? Or could it also fall into the area we have been looking at in the pictures?-----and can it migrate from one place to the other? (I've not been in there and can't tell from looking at the pictures) And finally---what holds that pin in place to begin with? Is it press fit or is it part of the assembly and just breaks off? Should the rest of us be checking the status of that pin once in a while as a matter of Preventative maintenance?
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby 6 Riders » 01:17 am Sep 04 2014

Deseret Rider wrote:Yup! if bufftester says it's time---it's time. I have one question? If that pin escapes from it's intended position will it always fall into the transmission---I.E. between the cases? Or could it also fall into the area we have been looking at in the pictures?-----and can it migrate from one place to the other? (I've not been in there and can't tell from looking at the pictures) And finally---what holds that pin in place to begin with? Is it press fit or is it part of the assembly and just breaks off? Should the rest of us be checking the status of that pin once in a while as a matter of Preventative maintenance?

I found mine in the inner clutch cover...didn't make it into anything and besides being broken off...it was still intact. They are held on w/Allen head bolts, but that is not the "weak spot".

The whole problem with this thing breaking off is that it is in a gear box (clutch, starter, water pump, etc.) and can get into those gears and ruin plenty right there. It can also get "washed" into the gear box itself and wreak terrible havoc inside there....but there is also the possibility that it trashes your clutch basket and gear, get smashed and/or broken up and then proceeds into the gear box to release "pure hell" on your transmission, basically totaling your bike.

Of course these are "worse case" scenarios, but it is all possible, in whole or just one thing....it can happen.

I was terribly lucky because I was servicing the bike (inside the inner clutch cover) regularly at the time...so it wasn't "broke off" in there very long. But again I was lucky!
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Re: 1997 KDX200 - Stopped Shifting

Postby Shadowdev » 11:40 am Sep 04 2014

Hi Everyone,
Well, you’re all right; I should split the case …
With that in mind I took a magnet wand and went around the case… and actually found something that looks like it may be the pin or part of it…

In the picture below, how much of the KIPS Governor Lever do you think these part fragments make up?
Does someone have a picture of the KIPS lever part as a whole?

In the video I show how the shift turret rotates and the reason for my concern.
Please take a look at the pictures and video and let me know what you think.

Again, I really do appreciate all of your support and good advice.
Many Thanks,
SD

P.S. have checked availability of the part KIPS Governor Lever PN:13236-1260 though a couple of sources with nearly 10 days wait time... Anyone have a better suggestion to get it any sooner?




These are all of the part of the KIPS Governor Lever Assembly from the bike. The plate with two holes I unbolted from the KIPS actuator shaft and the other 3 were found in the case (2 from earlier in the week as pictured above and the 1 pin piece found today).

Image
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