Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

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KDXrider1989
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by KDXrider1989 »

aw man :doh:
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by KDXGarage »

Jason wrote:Thanks, but he has an SR model. I don't know if his valves are the same as 1989 - 1994 USA KDX valves. If his valves are different, then all these posts and time are worthless to USA KDX owners.
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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Gotanubike »

Well everything is the same except the last two numbers. Possibly those numbers are just designated for which ever continent they are marketed...I'll do a measurement of the new valve I have on the shelf and report back
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by KDXsg »

SR and E model kips valves are the same.
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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Gotanubike »

Here's something I just whipped up. All numbers are in mm. The valve is not 72 metres long :mrgreen:

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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by pumpguy »

There is no mention of the type of material these valves are made from and if there is any heat treating done. If this is not addressed, IMO the service life could be no better than the OEM valves.
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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Bitteeinit »

Hey all, sorry for the late reply. They are indeed E-series valves. 1121-1122.

The only problem I noticed once they'd made them is this:
Image

I went back to the shop two days ago and they were kind of reluctant to make a whole new set. They modified this set with an angle grinder which resulted in a slightly less attractive in those grooves (but they're now much closer to the original). So we agreed that I'd go see if it "fits". If it doesn't work, they'll make me a new set for free. So I brought them to my mechanic (whose a well known enduro rider). He was quite surprised and said he thought they would work. He'll put them in and check to see if the movement is affected or if it's rubbing on anything. If they look good, I'm going to take the originals and have a few more sets done. Can anyone confirm the amount of play between the valves and the grooves in the kips gears? The thread below has some nice pictures, but I'm wondering if it needs to be space shuttle precise or if there can be a bit of leeway. Meaning, does the angle and opening size of those cutouts need to be perfect?

Surprisingly, those OEM valves are actually a bit "off". The openings are acually slightly different from either side of the same valve (which means the angle is also a bit off) AND the lengths (1121-1122) are also slightly different. I'm starting to think this imperfection isn't intentional at all and that there's room for a bit of play. Basically, I'm starting to think the valves don't need to be perfect...
http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=87851

As for the material, it's definitely not the strongest steel (cheap Chinese stuff I'd imagine), but even cheap steel will be way stronger than aluminum. But in a way I think it's good because if anything fails, it'll be those gears and not the gears on the rod.

Anyways, I'll drop by the mechanic tomorrow morning to see if he's "dry tested them" and ask what he thinks. If it works, I'll go have a few sets made. I figure it'll be 20-25$ per set. I could either Fedex them out from here (Cambodia), or for those who want to wait and save a bit, I could ship them from Canada come December. Honestly, I'd be interested in sending a set out to someone "quickly", just to get an idea from an expert's point of view. Many of you are really knowledgeable when it comes to this sort of stuff, whereas I'm just toying around at the moment. Getting other's people input when it's installed/how it runs/operates (smoothly or not) would be interesting before making 15 sets... Still, 20-30$ is more than a 50% discount for something that'll likely last way longer. I think the two valves cost me 33$ and 47$ EACH or something weird like that on partszilla.
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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Gotanubike »

They look really close to the originals! So basically, when the valve turns, the groove makes a new passage for exhaust gases. Otherwise when they are closed, the flat part(basically just the outside flat half on the other side of the groove) is blocking the exhaust gases.

The angle and opening size of those grooves don't need to be absolutely perfect. Maybe making the groove a little larger than OEM might help in that there would be no snags in the port alignment, but getting them "close enough" as the ones pictured, they would probably work without issue.. The depth of the groove may be a little more important. If too much is taken out "depth-wise" and there may be some leaks when the valve is closed...easy to check by a machinist with a set of calipers. Also not a major issue as the KIPS are mainly an auxiliary function anyways.

Would love to have a look at these for you if you are looking for some input. I also have a brother who does some machining so if I spot any flaws I can likely have him correct them. If you wish you may email @ prog_nation@hotmail.com.
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Bitteeinit »

Ok, sorry for the lack of update here. I ran back in forth twice in one day to get the done. The mechanic was understandably getting irate from having to work with a part that didn't fit properly. I should have just brought the cyclinder to the machine shop to check, haha. I first had to cut off a slight portion of the gears (and the two protruding ends) because when they sat at the bottom, the little covers weren't perfectly flush with the cylinder block. The putting on a gasket would have been pointless. We then noticed that two of those covers didn't fit on top of the "protruding bit". One fit (it was a bit worn), but the two others didn't... So I went back and had them sand it down a bit till it fit perfectly. They also needed to adjust one of them which was slightly bent.

Anyways, in the end it worked out and I now have steel kips inside my engine! Not sure if the KIPS is kicking in because I don;t have much to comapre it to. I only rode the bike twice in first and second gear beforehand... But in third I definately feel a switch to torque at low speed and then a nice smooth rev out when I rip it. 2nd feels a bit clunkier/shorter. Is 3rd teh "go to" gear for KDXs?

I think I'll crack open the topend right before going back to Canada and have a look at them and make sure everything is ok. If nothing has snapped off, then I could have a bunch made as the machinists now "know" the piece well enough and the originals aren't in the engine.

Also weird was that the gasket set I had didn't fit perfectly. Seems SR models and Emodels are different in quite a few ways. They had to use the old gasket and some silicone... Oh well...

Here is what was left of my KIPS (OEM ones I ordered on the left):
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Last edited by Bitteeinit on 11:17 am Sep 09 2014, edited 1 time in total.
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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Gotanubike »

Looks a lot like what came from my motor when I did my first tear down last year. My right side valve + idle gear have never had an issue, though. Only the left valve, like yours the gear teeth are worn flat where the rod contacts. Is there any chance of having the idle gear made up as well??
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Julien D »

If you do get some more made, sign me up for a set.
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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by SS109 »

I don't think steel is the best material for the job considering the weight of it and the stress and wear that added weight would impart to other areas and parts. I wish someone would make a subvalve out of something like 7075 and then hard anodize it. That would be way stronger than the factory cast pieces yet it would retain the light weight. However, steel has got to be better than the OEM parts!
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by KDXsg »

I had used steel valves 16 years ago. really no point in doing so. something got to wear out. either change the left valves or if you choose to use steel, the wear will be on the cylinder valve hole and also to the grovenor rod teeths. if you want longevity of the left valve just make sure all valves top spacers are in good condition.
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by bbsdaddy1221 »

Just my 2cents but why in the world would u want steel kips valves. All the kips parts moving and rub against the cylinder as that's where there housed. When ur kips valves wear they wear for a reason because you won't want the cylinder metal to wear hence why the valves are soft and wear. Sorry to say but that's just the nature of the beast. You did a great job getting these made. Why not just have them make them in a similar but so there just way cheaper
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Julien D »

It's not wear that's the issue, it's shearing at the narrow portion, or stripped teeth because of the super soft material they used. As far as accelerated wear in the cylinder due to steal, brass bushings.vs would be easy enough install if it was a concern.
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Bitteeinit »

Yeah... The idea that I'd do more damage did indeed cross my mind. But I suspect it'll be ok. Here's my reasoning:
1-The wear is usually on the teeths/gears of the valves, which are very "skinny" and brittle. The gears on the governor rod are very thick and have a lot profile comparatively speaking. Alternatively, the top head of the valves often break off (as seen above).
2-The metal on the governor rod is much higher quality than the stuff I used. Something indeed has to go, but if anything goes, it'll be the gears on the valves. I'd think the same applies for the walls of the area we put it in.

Anyways, I do appreciate the feedback. I hadn't thought of doing a steel idle gear. Getting a few spare "covers" (bushings?!) would have been a good idea. Next time in in Canada I'll probably order those top covers along with an idle gear so I can make steel copies, or if I detect any wear on other parts I'll just put originals back in.


I realize that this is a test, and I'm testing it on my own bike (fingers crossed). I've only ridden the bike 3-4 hours since they've been put in. It's a bit hard for me to know how well they're working because the valves didn't work before (I test rode the bike only 5-10 minutes before buying. Mostly in 1st-2nd), and I'd never ridden a smoker before either. I feel a nice push in both low and high gear (especially in 3Rd which I can go in really low speed with, or go really fast with), but it's hard to know if they're working perfectly or not as I have nothing to compare it to. I'm also not even sure if the mechanic timed them correctly as I didn't give him a sheet of paper with the timing instructions (though he did have a kx before so knew what the valves were for. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt).

I'm on vacation for 3 weeks, but I'll be heading back there in 2 weeks so I'll have plenty of time to test ride it some more. So far I love the bike. I do hope I don't do any permanent damage to it...
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by bbsdaddy1221 »

When ever you take them out to inspect them the next time, go to a parts store and by a bottle of blue valve did when lapping valves. Paint the whole internal area in question and the. Inspect them again in about 10 hours.

Have you thought of just having them made from aluminum?
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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by SS109 »

It's official, E-series sub-valves, part #'s 12005-1121 and 12005-1122, are now discontinued. Somebody please step up and get some made?! I would do it but I don't have a set of good ones to have copied. :sad:
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Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by dingerjunkie »

Anyone here into 3D scanning/modeling/printing? The files used for that process can be converted to standard CAD specs from what I understand, which can be plotted by any CNC system for machining.

If I'm right, we just need one clean donor set for the E-series for someone to get a 3D scan set made. There must be some geeks here that are familiar...
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Re: Would anyone be interested in some steel KIPS valves?

Post by Tedh98 »

A good machine shop should be able to take the cylinder and a less than perfect set of valves and be able to build a new set of valves.
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