My tale of woe for today.

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90SDKDX
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My tale of woe for today.

Post by 90SDKDX »

Well it's been a while since I've posted in here since I've been so busy. Over the past couple weeks I've been working on tearing down my cylinder to clean my kips valves because the performance seems poor and I was almost certain that the PO did not do anything of the sort.

So today I got the cylinder head off and started to take the kips apart. Well needless to say both of my exhaust valves are done for. In fact I don't think they could even serve the purpose of a paper weight. Both exhaust valves came apart in pieces. I don't know if this is normal as I've never done this job on a bike before but I'm pretty certain they should all be once piece, minus the collar that sits on top. At first I thought that it may be separate components because the top looked like a smaller dowel pin that came out basically as soon as the head came off. After looking at the parts fiche though it certainly seems that it should all be one long shaft that goes through both the gear and the valve.

The left side collar was crooked in the cylinder and the gear itself was basically half worn, looking like it had been smashed in on one side and worn on the other. The bottom part of the valve that sits under the gear is still in the cylinder because I haven't been able to fish it out and it is crooked.

The right side collar was in the correct positioning, but again the gear was significantly damaged. I was able to get this one out.

The idler gear is slightly worn but was easy coming out and was not in multiple pieces. The main rod piece was also quite a hassle coming out. Basically had to pry on it and use a rubber mallet with a flat head to tap it out.

Hopefully I can get the other valve out once the cylinder is removed. The notches on the rod look decent and shouldn't need replaced, especially since it is discontinued.

Thanks for reading and hope your day is going better than mine :) I'll update once I get the cylinder pulled.
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Re: My tale of woe for today.

Post by KDXGarage »

Well, sorry to hear of your woes. I am seeing a lot of stories on damaged USA 1989 - 1994 KDX200 power valve parts. :sad:
Thank you for participating on kdxrider.net. :bravo:
To post pictures from a device: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=24128
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Gotanubike
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My tale of woe for today.

Post by Gotanubike »

That rod is cast iron i think, which makes it pretty much indestructible. The three pinion valves are aluminum though and can become seized up with a little carbon or if the previous owner was running bad 2T oil they can easily seize up. It's a good to take everything apart and clean/re lubricate every other season maybe..

I'm glad I inquired on this here last spring when I did a tear down to find a coolant leak. Turned out my left one was gone but still had no knowledge as to how they worked. I was able to get those valves (L+R) from my local dealer for around $45 a piece but some people are saying they can't get them from their dealers.

The center valve is almost definitely discontinued and you may have some trouble finding one. I have an extra one of those, as well as a rod, so if you find out that one is bad too, let me know I can send one out to you.

Here's an exploded view of all upper end components. There are certainly no dowel pins in the kips other than the top of the valves which seat inside the cylinder head to keep them stable.

Image
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90SDKDX
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My tale of woe for today.

Post by 90SDKDX »

Gotanubike wrote:That rod is cast iron i think, which makes it pretty much indestructible. The three pinion valves are aluminum though and can become seized up with a little carbon or if the previous owner was running bad 2T oil they can easily seize up. It's a good to take everything apart and clean/re lubricate every other season maybe..

I'm glad I inquired on this here last spring when I did a tear down to find a coolant leak. Turned out my left one was gone but still had no knowledge as to how they worked. I was able to get those valves (L+R) from my local dealer for around $45 a piece but some people are saying they can't get them from their dealers.

The center valve is almost definitely discontinued and you may have some trouble finding one. I have an extra one of those, as well as a rod, so if you find out that one is bad too, let me know I can send one out to you.

Here's an exploded view of all upper end components. There are certainly no dowel pins in the kips other than the top of the valves which seat inside the cylinder head to keep them stable.

Image
That seems to be what I'm finding everywhere I've searched. The rod looks to be in good shape once I get it cleaned. I don't have the center valve out yet so I'm praying that it is okay. I work at a dealer (unfortunately we don't carry kawasaki) but we do buy those parts from a local dealer so hopefully I can get them with a little discount anyways. I was having troubles with low end power going up steep inclines. I think I know why now lol.
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Re: My tale of woe for today.

Post by Julien D »

The center valve is also steel, and is usually fine. The two subvalves are the weak link. When putting it back together, make sure everything moves buttery smooth before you start riding. If there is any binding, you will strip the new valves in short order. Eventually some really awesome member will make us some out of tougher material.
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Gotanubike
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My tale of woe for today.

Post by Gotanubike »

It might be worth looking into having a 3d printing company whip some up? I know they do stainless steel, even titanium and ceramic...heck they're already making 3d printed guns...group buy anyone? :cool:

Worth mentioning that molybdenum grease should be used to lubricate all the KIPS components, but I didn't have any of that so I used high temp grease mixed with a little 10w40.
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ICRage42
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My tale of woe for today.

Post by ICRage42 »

good idea with the 3d printing.

Its a good alternative for replacing parts no longer made. I worked with several to recreate old gi joe dolls and attachments. At the time was very new and costly. VERY fun project to work on. Im an avid ZBrush user and it incorporates into most machines. I remodeled alot of the features in high definition and reimposed them onto the base models (original) and made new uniforms to date. Many many attachments and modeling time. I made tons of models for figurines, alot you can find at spencer gift stores and such. My first model was Ash from Evil Dead. (Bruce Cambell cool guy got to meet him.) All done with some sort of 3d printing.

Nowadays its getting less overhead to get some printing done. Hell for that matter you could buy a makerbot one for around 5 grand. You couldnt do a job for less then that back in the day and now your in the hundreds.

So even if you do decide to have some printed with the higher grade steel or whatnot is really what your gonna have to pay for. Cutting plastic vs high grade metal. Theres usually a very small cut on the deal since most operate at a what it cost to run it anymore. You really cant ask for a better deal then that. Unless contract and whatnot I wouldnt look for a heck of a deal so to say. One big reason is the software usually kills them. The constant rush of new programs and migrating and transferring data is a constant hell. Ive worked with several and I can honestly tell you that you might get a deal if you tell them you hate programmers. :lol:

Thats just the printing side.

Why its 3d printing is because its just a copier of what you create in a 3d application. Autocad, 3dstudio max, maya hell theres tons now. ZBrush being all go to it for high definition. Love ZBrush. So youd have to either pony up for 5 grand for a commercial license or pay someone to design it for you with a license to create in whatever application you choose. (your best bet is 3dstudio max or cad)

Once the item is recreated in program it is made into an OBJ file or object file. Once the file is uploaded then its just a matter of cutting. The pain in the ass is getting the machine to recognize all obj files created. However some machines favor one application or the other. Some cuts just come out wrong even if the file is correct.

By the time you figure it all in your in about 800 for a replica kickstarter. (just an example) Scanning sucks and youll pay more in scrapped pieces then the final piece atm.

3d printing is still in its infancy. However I do picture one being in every house very soon.

In the long run it could be just cheaper to have someone machine one for you also, I dont know.

This is from the creators of John Carter the movie. The digital artist used dynamesh to cut down on the polygon count and milled the full sized character out of foam.

http://pixologic.com/interview/john-carter/legacy/4/

on right.
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Gotanubike
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Post by Gotanubike »

So it's just a matter of obtaining a 3d rendering and send it off to a printing company who can make them? Aren't there are companies that could create them based on samples if they were sent to their labs? Which is the more expensive part because I recall this sort of 3d rendering software in highschool machine shop! :lol:

Also I heard 3d metal printers don't actually do any machining, but they use lasers and a metal powder... basically just like a mig welder the powder is projected and fuses by the laser. But doing some reading on wikipedia I see there are more than 1 methods of metal printing...All seems very complicated and pretty high tech
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90SDKDX
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Post by 90SDKDX »

If I had spare money laying around a 3d printed version of this would be awesome! I too believe that 3D printers will soon be a highly sought after item, even from big box stores selling cheap knock offs. I guarantee tons of people will try and build "specialty" items and sell them as a business. Someone will eventually use this technology in a process similar to the gasket cutting machines you see in some shops. It'd be nice to walk in somewhere, ask if they have the part, and if they don't then they simply make you one with a choice of different materials!
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Post by 90SDKDX »

Welp was looking at my exhaust valve rod as I was passing the bike in the garage today and its got a slight bend to it. I should be able to bend it straight with my rubber mallet once I get the collar off the end. At least I hope to, since that part is discontinued. I doubt it would break by tapping on it. And there really isn't any stress placed on the rod when it's in the cylinder, just moves in and out.
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Post by Gotanubike »

Those gears strip and can jam up causing stress but I never heard of that rod getting bent. :neutral: If you find you need a new one I have an extra I could send one out.

Also it might be wise to check the governor rod and lever(that's the vertical one on the outside of the right side cover) maybe even the governor gear and assembly behind the right side cover.
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90SDKDX
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My tale of woe for today.

Post by 90SDKDX »

Gotanubike wrote:Those gears strip and can jam up causing stress but I never heard of that rod getting bent. :neutral: If you find you need a new one I have an extra I could send one out.

Also it might be wise to check the governor rod and lever(that's the vertical one on the outside of the right side cover) maybe even the governor gear and assembly behind the right side cover.
It's bent basically right where the teeth start or where the odd shaped bushing sits on the left side. What price would you ask for on the rod?
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Re: My tale of woe for today.

Post by 90SDKDX »

Oops I meant on the right side, not the left.
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Gotanubike
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Post by Gotanubike »

I see what you mean, that first inch or so that holds the retaining clips looks like it could be bent pretty easily...

Looks like they are $50 on most OEM parts sites. Does $25 shipped sound reasonable? Since you can't private mesage, just check my profile for contact info.
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90SDKDX
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My tale of woe for today.

Post by 90SDKDX »

So at lunch today I took another look and tried to straighten the rod out. I slid the rod into the cylinder (loosely) and it doesn't feel like it is binding anywhere. There was a small bit of drag but it may have been me holding the rod crooked. I did also take the outer e-clip out (inside one was missing) but I'm not able to pull the collar off. The end of the rod seems to be peened over so you can't just slide the collar off and the diameter of the portion with the teeth is to large to try that direction.

I did bend it slightly while taking it out because it wouldn't loosen otherwise. I bent it back to what I thought was straight, but apparently not. I'm curious though if the bend is supposed to be there to catch the arm. I'm thinking not. :sad:

Do you have just the rod, or is it complete with collar and guide? I appreciate all the help this is quite the process.
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Gotanubike
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Post by Gotanubike »

Man it sounds like you have a basket case. The rod needs both of those e-clips on the ride side to move back and forth or else it would stay open without the inside one...The rod likely became bent from jamming on the broken gears, not build up in the passage. I'm really suprised that plastic governor assembly and level arm had enough mustard to put a bend in that KIPS rod

Also, The rod is removed from the left side behind the resonator cover(one that says KIPS on it). Once all kips valves and gears are removed(including the center ones), the rod can be removed from the left side with the 2 e-clips removed from the right side....It's really easiest to work on with the whole cylinder removed.

I just have the rod. You shouldn't even need to remove that collar unless it has somehow become misaligned or warped. Collar being '49002' in the diagram above. e-clips being '482'.

You're in luck too, I have an extra pair of those clips, i could throw in one of those.
Last edited by Gotanubike on 06:26 pm Jan 30 2014, edited 1 time in total.
1990 KDX200
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90SDKDX
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My tale of woe for today.

Post by 90SDKDX »

Gotanubike wrote:
Also, The rod is removed from the left side behind the resonator cover(one that says KIPS on it). Once all kips valves and gears are removed(including the center ones), the rod can be removed from the left side with the 2 e-clips removed from the right side....It's really easiest to work on with the whole cylinder removed.

This would have been good to know. The service manual is a bit misleading since it has you pull the rod out as far as it will go, remove the subvalves, and then remove the rod (doesn't say which direction). It also says to wait until you have the cylinder removed to take out the main valve. So I wonder if I were to tap the rod back into the cylinder with those e-clips removed and then pull the rod out from the other side, leaving the collar in place. I planned on replacing the oil seal and o-ring on that collar since I was in this far. What would you use to pull the rod out through the left side? Or should it be easy enough with just a pair of pliers?

And as far as it being a basket case it is in a sense. The PO only used it to putt around at the lake. Other than this, the missing exhaust baffle, and the horrible build up of carbon in the exhaust it's been a good bike. I'm brand new to dirt bikes (couple years now) and its been a fun experience.
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Gotanubike
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Post by Gotanubike »

You're best off grinding off the bent part of the rod if it's hindering your ability to remove it. You're saying you removed the collar from the cylinder but aren't able to remove it from the bent rod? And yeah the far left end of the rod(last 1/2 inch or so) is slightly larger so it may not be able to removed from the right side because of that. it needs to come out the left side, like I said grind off the bent part or, if you can, heat it up and try to straighten it until it can be removed...

I double checked and I have an extra rod, collar, and an e-clip I could part with

edit: here's pic of all the extra kips junk I have

Btw, if you did remove the rod from the right side(and collar) how did you remove it without removing the center exhaust valve?

Image
Last edited by Gotanubike on 07:12 pm Jan 30 2014, edited 1 time in total.
1990 KDX200
Bike Profile -> http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... 61#p136315
Suspension Overhaul(Shock+89-92 conventional forks) -> http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... 15&t=15255
96'-98' RM125 Showa 49mm fork swap -> http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... 04&t=16994
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Re: My tale of woe for today.

Post by 90SDKDX »

Yes the rod and both collars were removed all at the same time through the right side of the motor (oops). I then took the one e-clip off, thinking the collars would be removed from the right end of the rod.
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Gotanubike
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Re: My tale of woe for today.

Post by Gotanubike »

90SDKDX wrote:Yes the rod and both collars were removed all at the same time through the right side of the motor (oops). I then took the one e-clip off, thinking the collars would be removed from the right end of the rod.
Ok, but because of the bend in the rod, you can't remove the collar...

But how did you remove the rod without removing the center valve first? Unless I'm mistaken, maybe it can be bypassed...

Well if you want just chuck that rod and collar. I have the rod and I'm pretty sure that part in the bottom right is the collar assembly..also and e-clip for you there.

You'll most definitely want to remove the right engine cover and double check your governor gear assembly and right side governor rod+lever(which you can see without removing the cover). Another thing is the reverse threads on that lever which I assume you read in the manual first. that is a hard part to come by.
1990 KDX200
Bike Profile -> http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... 61#p136315
Suspension Overhaul(Shock+89-92 conventional forks) -> http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... 15&t=15255
96'-98' RM125 Showa 49mm fork swap -> http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... 04&t=16994
KDXrider world map! -> https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=186158
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