Regulator capacity

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skipro3
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Regulator capacity

Post by skipro3 »

I have a question about voltage regulators / recifiers.

Is there a current limit on the regulator on the KDX? In other words, if I have a lighting coil that could put out 100watts, would the regulator be able to handle a load that high?

My KX250 has a regulator/rectifier to drive the solenoid on the carborator. I want to use this coil/regulator/rectifier to drive a light. I've found other guys on-line who have done this but I wonder if there is a way to measure the coil capacity and maximum output as well as not damage any of the parts.
Jerry

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Post by canyncarvr »

The Electrex coil puts out 100 volts....

Yes, I understand that not to be a direct answer to your question. Seems to me the premise of the question isn't right.....


What will limit your ability to run a load is the coil, not the regulator. The regulator needs to be able to handle the voltage output of the coil, but it doesn't supply the current for the load...the coil does.

Now..that all changes if you are talking about a recitifier. In that case, the current goes 'thru' the device, so current is an issue.

What does the KX electrical stuff run on? AC or DC? If AC, then it has a regulator, if DC then it's a rectifier (most likely...not an absolute). In the latter case, current requirements would matter. You can check a circuit with a variable load (rheostat), an ammeter and a voltmeter....crank on the load until the voltage reading starts to drop below spec. At that point the ammeter will tell you how much oomph capacity you have.

Depending on how robust the rectifier is (in the case of DC) if you don't load it too much past voltage spec, nothing should burn up or go 'Poof!'.

I suppose there is the off-chance that they put in a way too big rectifier (again, if DC), so if you load the device enough to drop the voltage some wires could smoke...but I really doubt that. If you end up hooking up a big adjustable load to the thing to check it out, keep that in mind. Wiring in the bike should easily handle whatever current you can squeeze out any 'reasonable' rectifier.

In the case of a regulator, I wouldn't worry about that part. You should be able to short the output of the coil and not hurt the coil.

Look at it this way...in a regulator, the higher the load, the less the regulator works. In the case of a 12VAC regulator (like the KDX has)...when the load gets to the point that the voltage drops below 12 volts..the regulator isn't doing anything but sitting there.

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Post by skipro3 »

Then why does RickyStator rate their regulataor?
http://www.rickystator.com/pages/AC_Vol ... lator.html

My KX250 regulator/rectifier creates DC in order to operate the solenoid. AC don't do the trick for this. Since I obviously have a coil, a regulator and a rectifier, I am wondering if it will drive a headlamp. (It will, according to what I've read on "other" sites, I just don't know the system's capacity and that is what I want to know without damaging the parts)

I understand the coil generates the power / current, and the regulator controls the output voltage as a constant dispite the current draw from the load, and that the recifier converts the AC to DC. But the current generated from the coil will be tranfered to the load via the regulator and recifier, so these components must have a rating for maximum current they can support to the load. In the case of a regulator, too much current will cause it to thermally fail. (I know, it's happend in other projects of mine.)
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Post by Indawoods »

bajadesigns should be able to give you a clue ski!
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Post by skipro3 »

O.K. I ordered about $150 worth of stuff from DennisKirk:
Headlight, mini hi/lo/off/kill switch, 2 Hydraulic brake switches, rear enduro fender with light. Now I'll have headlight and brake lights!!!
Jerry

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Post by canyncarvr »

Yeah...but the current the regulator is sinking is what is NOT used..not what IS used. Personally, I think that is why Kawasaki switches the regulator 'on' on the KDX...they do NOT switch the already regulated voltage 'on'. The latter would exceed the capacity of the regulator. At least give it a headache.

That's what I was referring to with the 'premise' comment. Saying, '..the current generated from the coil will be tranfered to the load via the regulator and recifier' is true..but that doesn't mean through the 'regulator and rectifier'. I say through the rectifier, but NOT through the regulator.

I don't know that you 'obviously' have a coil, a regulator AND a rectifier. That seems a bit much of a setup to run a single solenoid. Sure...maybe you have all that stuff..but it wouldn't be necessary, thus...why do it? 'Form Follows Function' and all that. Ha! Like Maw Kaw wants to find places to spend unnecessary cash on their bikes? Probably not.


They do make AC solenoids, so 'won't do the trick' may be true for the KX application but is not always the case.

Still, a rheostat and a couple of meters will tell you what the system will put out. That will answer your 'How much' question. Take out the spark plug, hook up a power source to the flywheel, spin it up, check it out.

Uh...4-strokers getting the idea to do this...make sure your oil pump runs off the crank before you hookup a 'spinner' to your bike.

Seems odd to me that Kaw would design a power system to run a little solenoid and..hey! Cool! I can run 70 Watts of lights, too!! Bonus!! I'll hook up my microwave for some popcorn, too!! :roll:

Talk to Ricky. He will tell you 'Can' or 'Can't'. Don't know if Baja is as helpful. I've talked to Ricky before..he's helpful whether he's selling you stuff or not.


BTW...why do high output stators have multiple poles, each counterwound from the other? To get lot'sa volts? Well, you could say lot'sa 'different' voltages all lined up in a cute 'row', but the point is lot'sa current.

Sure...either one will work...more volts or more amps is more watts just the same...sorta. Different design issues with more of the one than more of the other..and vicey versa.

All of this you know already. Mostly written for someone else reading this.

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Post by skipro3 »

>|<>QBB<
canyncarvr wrote:
I don't know that you 'obviously' have a coil, a regulator AND a rectifier. That seems a bit much of a setup to run a single solenoid. Sure...maybe you have all that stuff..but it wouldn't be necessary, thus...why do it? 'Form Follows Function' and all that. Ha! Like Maw Kaw wants to find places to spend unnecessary cash on their bikes? Probably not.
Well, I rechecked the manual and schematic. There's a seperate coil, voltage regulator and rectifier to the solenoid. I even measure it with a meter as DC too. I hooked up a 12 v 35w bulb and she's plenty bright wether the bike is ildleing or running higher rpms.
My stator is rotory config, meaning it looks like the motor on an old airplane: many poles radiating from a hub. I'm glad Kawasaki did that!!
Jerry

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Post by Indawoods »

Fine...don't look then....
Here's what I have found:
KX 2-strokes require aftermarket stator assembly (for their kits anyway)
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Post by Indawoods »

Maybe you can extract some info from this:

https://www.bajadesigns.com/NET/item_de ... e=121300GN
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Post by canyncarvr »

Why on earth is there a multiple pole setup on a KX..that has no lights while on the KDX there is a single winding and it has lights?

That is NOT a rhetorical question. Honestly..what is the sense of that? A bike that is designed to need power is designed with no power and a bike that needs squat for power is designed with lots of it.



$470? That's insane.

Happy now? I looked! :shock:

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Post by m0rie »

>|<>QBB<
skipro3 wrote:>|<>QBB<
canyncarvr wrote:
I don't know that you 'obviously' have a coil, a regulator AND a rectifier. That seems a bit much of a setup to run a single solenoid. Sure...maybe you have all that stuff..but it wouldn't be necessary, thus...why do it? 'Form Follows Function' and all that. Ha! Like Maw Kaw wants to find places to spend unnecessary cash on their bikes? Probably not.
Well, I rechecked the manual and schematic. There's a seperate coil, voltage regulator and rectifier to the solenoid. I even measure it with a meter as DC too. I hooked up a 12 v 35w bulb and she's plenty bright wether the bike is ildleing or running higher rpms.
My stator is rotory config, meaning it looks like the motor on an old airplane: many poles radiating from a hub. I'm glad Kawasaki did that!!
Sounds like your set then Ski. If the light is bright under load and the carb is still running the solenoid like it should I'd say your good to go.
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Post by skipro3 »

Dang, I can't convert the buykawasaki image, it a .PNG file.

But go to buykawasaki.com and check it out. 2002 KX250 Generator page

It even has 4 rotors. 1 stock and 3 primarys that are different weights, so that means it has built in flywheel weight based on which rotor you buy.

The regulator doesn't say it's rectified, but I can assure you, it is DC on an o'scope as well as my Fluke.

I wonder if it would fit a KDX? I wonder what the mapping on the ignition looks like and if that would work?
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Post by skipro3 »

Here's a photo of one off eBay:
Image
Last edited by skipro3 on 03:43 pm Oct 12 2005, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by m0rie »

Looking at the parts diagrams it looks like 99-02 KX's all have the carb solenoid, regulator deal. Looks like you could add lights to any of them fairly easily...
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Post by skipro3 »

I think so too m0rie.

Carvr's got a good question though: Why would Kawasaki build such a nice stator/rotor for only driving a simple solenoid? BTW, here's what I got in way of lights from Dennis Kirk (Thanks Wibby!!)
1. Part# 613585 UFO Kawasaki Enduro Rear Fender w/Light $19
2. Part# 615155 Twin Headlight $57.99
3. Part# 210885 Mini Headlight Switch with Kill Function $27.99 (Pricey but cool!!)
4. Part# 210369 Hydraulic Brake Light Switch $35.98 for 2 of these:front &rear brake!

The headlight switch has high and low beam as well as a kill switch built in. Should save space on the bars. The hydraulic brake light switchs replace the banjo bolts. I think it's just another safety object so I don't get rear ended when the riding gets close! I've always thought a brake light was a good idea. Here's a cheap way to do it! And here is the story of why I'm getting a headlight to begin with: This story is posted on the District 36 website.


Posted Saturday morning 10/8/05:
A District 36 rider, Wayne Marshall, and his riding buddy Sean went for a day ride Friday and haven’t returned, nor has there been any message from them. Wayne’s wife is very concerned as it is not like him to not call. The likely places they would have gone to is Pulga, in the Feather River Canyon close to the Rag Dump area parking about a mile to a mile and a half off Hwy 70 on Pulga Rd, or Burlington with a possible of Stonyford. They are in a 2005 Chevy Colorado or GMC Canyon, Silver in color.
It would be appreciated if anyone riding those areas who see this truck call me at 925 381-5183 or Wayne’s son, Dan at 510 558-0655 to tell us where they are. Please help us find a fellow D36 rider who might be in trouble.

Posted on Sunday the 9th of October:
Well guys, we made it out of the Downieville area the next morning. Our troubles started when we met a couple of really nice mountain bikers on the Chimney Rock trail who offered us a map of the area. After consulting the map we decided that we could return to our truck faster if we were to go on and use the Poker Flat trails to get to Gold Lake instead of back tracking the way we had come. At this point we were about 36 miles out.
The map that the Mt bikers gave us proved to be accurate up to the point of getting us to Poker Flat but what we had not expected was from that point on, the trails were either not marked at all or were somewhat confusing. To add to our problems, we found a couple of errors on the map as to where connector trails should have been. It was troubling for us to believe that the map could be in error but believe me, there were some errors.
We finally decided that we had to bite the bullet and backtrack on trails that we knew even though it would add many miles to our treck. By the time we got to Empire ranch I was desperatly lowon fuel but we saw a family outside their cabin so I asked to purchas some gas and they were very obliging so I got about a gallon there.
So now we are off again, tearing up the trail on trails we know but the sun is going down fast. By the time it was completely dark we thought we were only a few miles from the truck but it was pitch black, not even a moon.
I told Sean that if we didn't stop now we would probably et seriously hurt trying to ride all those rock trails without light.
Luckily where we stopped was by a lake and there was ample drift wood to burn all night and we used the lake as a good reffenence piont to orient ourselves in the morning.
In the am we located our exact position and started out but we still had the problem of no fuel for Sean's bike and we knew that at least one of us had to get to the truck in order to get both bikes out so we would stop every time Sean ran out and I'd give him anothe 4 to 6 ounces of my fuel and we'd coninue on until that was gone. Once we knew exactly how farwe had to go we felt comfortable dividing up the gas to get both bikes out.
Total ride miles came out to 97+. That's one long ride on the fuel we had.
Things we learned about what to carry in you racepack vs your pleasure ride pack:
Flash light, even a small one.
Good space blankets. I had one but I have to think that there are better ones on the market.
We found that it was better to use the blanket over us and angle it so it would reflect the heat from the fire onto us instead af wrapping it around us.
If you see that you are not going to make it out, try to pick the spot where you will spend the night. A source of fire wood is essential!!!!
If you can,find a land mark that will help once you start in the AM
Try to stop in a high area and maybe your cell phone may work.
Same thing with your CB radio.
Build your fire against a big rock if you can, it will help to reflect the heat.
Leave your loved one the exact place where you'll be riding along with the buddies names and phone numbers and the channel you'll use on your CB.
Maps, maps, and more maps!
Carry a small vial of 2 stroke oil. You may find gas but oil is hard to come by.
Don't be surprised if you find hunters on quads that wont give you any help.
We found two guys and asked for some gas after we told them that we spent the night out and they said they couldn't spare a 1/2 gallon.
I know some of you may think we were pretty stupid but in the 40 years that I have been racing and ridding, this is the first time I have spent the night out there. Sometimes you get to the point that you trust yourself too much and it turns around and bite you.
Sean and my biggest concern was our inability to contact our wives to tell them that we were OK. Spending the night wouldn't have seemed so bad if we could just have contacted them.
Wayne

Me, Skipro again speaking:
The areas that were first mentioned as possible riding areas are seperated by well over 100 miles; meaning no one had a clue where these guys were really riding. The area they were riding in, Downieville, was at least another 50 miles from the closest area that was being searched.
Neither rider had lights nor even in the followup advise are bike lights mentioned.
I know Sean and have ridden with him on several occasions. He's a young, strong guy, about 30, and rides at the A enduro level on a KTM 300EXC that he removed his light from for who-knows-why. (I now ask myself the same question with the KDX). He's very nice and patient when riding with me. I find it hard to believe that this happened to someone of this level. I know I'll never be near the rider he is and if this can happen to him, it most certainly can happen to me. My camelback now has a gps with extra batteries, I also am going to start packing my work Satallite phone. It's big and bulky but could save someone's life someday. If not the Sat phone then my company 2 way radio if I am in it's repeater coverage area. I'm hoping this story provides a wake-up call to anyone out there taking rides without being prepared to spend the night if need be.
Jerry

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Post by m0rie »

Ski thats a good story, i'm glad they made it out the next day with no injuries, etc! After a long day riding i've been stuck in the desert at night with no lights (or any supplies for that matter). Its not fun at all. We did make it out that night, but it could easily have been a much longer night than it was. That experience was what prompted me to add lighting to my KDX (bubba evidently didn't feel that same need when he stripped it off) and start carrying odds and ends like the space blanket and matches that your story mentioned. Really if your already carrying a water pack around with you it takes minimal room to carry a couple of power bars, some matches, a first aid kit, flashlight and space blanket. I've got all of that and more in my pack. I hope I never have to use any of it but i've got it if the need arises.

-Maurice
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Post by skipro3 »

I stopped in at Home Depot today for some items and found halogen bulbs that fit my new headlight! They are type MR16 and run on 12 volts DC used for track lighting. Here's why I bought 2, a flood and a beam bulb: They come in not only 35 watt but also 50 watt and 20 watt. I bought the set of 20 watt bulbs and tried them out. A 20 watt bulb is brighter than a 35 watt bulb running on the lighting system on the KX at all RPM's but the very highest; say, above 6000 rpm. On the bench, it pulls just a tad over 1 amp at 12 volts and only sightly dims when dropped to 8 volts. I'm going to add a 1.2ah 12volt battery I have and mount it behind the headlight shell. It will run that bulb for a whole hour just on it's own with the bike off. It should also keep the headlight at a constant brightness with a changing RPM range. The battery is small; about 1"x1.5"x3.5", and pretty light. My coil/regulator/rectifier should extend the life of the battery for several days of riding without removing it to top off a charge on it.

Any thoughts, ideas or comments on this plan?
Jerry

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Post by m0rie »

Are you going to get enough juice from the coil/rectifier combo to operate the carb solenoid and charge the battery while the light is on? Will there be enough juice to charge the battery period? The 20w bulb should be a good match to the system. Led bulb for the rear I'm assuming?
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Post by skipro3 »

Yes, LED bulb for the rear. No, the charging system won't keep up the battery when the headlight, brake light and tail light are in use, but if they are all off, then it should charge up. The battery is only there to supliment the on-board power and keep the lights at a constant brightness. It should be able to do that for several riding days before the battery will need to be put on the bench to charge; maybe every 3 months or so. With the battery keeping the voltage constant (like a big regulator with storage capacity), the carb solenoid will maintain it's steady diet of 12v with any other load or at any RPM range.

Photos will apprear once all the materials arrive and I permenantly mount everything. Right now, it's mostly mock-up on the bike in the garage, but looks most promising with that little battery acting as an additional engine for powering everything. I will have a master cut-out switch to revert back to stock wiring in case of a field failure of any type and a low voltage cutout circuit if the battery drops below 10.5vdc.
Jerry

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Post by skipro3 »

BTW, I've noticed L.E.D. driving lights on eBay for under $50 a pair. I can't find any documentation on current draw, but that would be pretty cool too if bright enough to at least keep you from spending a night in the woods.
Jerry

I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
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