four 220's set up the same---one doesn't pull

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 01:21 am Sep 11 2013

About ten seconds after I sent that last post I realized that I could probably compute the distance to degree ratio----all I had to do was measure the circumference of the rotor and divide by 360 to find the distance value of a single degree and then multiply by six to find the location of the rotor at a six degree advance. I also don't expect the timing to be a factor in my problem and thought it would be easier to pull the flywheel cover (5 bolts) than to transplant CDI units (which would indeed have led me to the same result. And --Yes----I have compared the sprocket sizes on all the bikes and they are all 13?47 which I think must be standard from the factory.
Six seconds after that my internet went down so I've only now been able to get back on. I've not yet run the test but I've computed that the 6 degree mark should be 349 mm's in advance of the TDC mark. I guess I can 'change' the timing by moving the position of the stator---if that is possible---but more interested now in just fining out what the timing actually is---- not anticipating that I'll have to change it----Let's see what happens when I put the timing light on it.

Your story made me chuckle----I can offer an instance when I was riding my trusty Bultaco Frontera 350 years ago and tried to ride down the side of a steep wash ---very narrow at the bottom ---and up the other side which was equally as steep. I didn't make it but somehow kept the bike up paddling with both feet as we slid backwards into the bottom of the wash. During the slide backwards I had grabbed some clutch and was amazed that the bike was still running when we stopped in the bottom. I Kicked it down to make sure I was in first gear---gave it about 6000 revs and dumped the clutch. Same result---over the handlebars I went and away went the bike---backwards. It seems that the Bul's were timed at only 4 degrees advanced of TDC and that was close enough that the bikes engine would run backwards if you could get them started that way---which is what happened somewhere during my backward trip on the backside of the wash.

I am still thinking that I will find a problem with the KIPS---but that is based solely on my son's perception that the bike ran strong before he performed the top end---Wisco installation and that during the course of that operation he said one of the 'gears' that are imbedded in the cylinder----those being two gears with short shafts that set 'vertical' in the cylinder block itself---popped out and fell on the floor. He didn't see anything significant about the way it went back it so he set it back in place at random and finished up the job----being careful to make sure that the 'claw'/gear arrangement on the right side had the Main port fully closed. He wasn't so worried about it at the time because he though it was a 'floating' gear and not driven from below? Comments on this point are welcome------

diymirage · Post by **diymirage** » 05:39 am Sep 11 2013

Deseret Rider wrote: I am still thinking that I will find a problem with the KIPS---but that is based solely on my son's perception that the bike ran strong before he performed the top end---Wisco installation and that during the course of that operation he said one of the 'gears' that are imbedded in the cylinder----those being two gears with short shafts that set 'vertical' in the cylinder block itself---popped out and fell on the floor. He didn't see anything significant about the way it went back it so he set it back in place at random and finished up the job----being careful to make sure that the 'claw'/gear arrangement on the right side had the Main port fully closed. He wasn't so worried about it at the time because he though it was a 'floating' gear and not driven from below? Comments on this point are welcome------

this is a bit of information we had not yet heard
the gears you are referring too are the subvalves and not only is there a left and a right, there are also timing marks on them

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd18 ... nd2012.jpg

now that we know THAT, yeah, it probably is the timing on the KIPS
funny thing is if you guys had a manual you would have been aware of this

diymirage · Post by **diymirage** » 04:14 pm Sep 11 2013

Deseret, I got your PM but I couldn't reply to it because you have incoming PMs disabled?
probably a good thing too because mentioning the maize and blue in my house usually doesn't go over well
unless it is of course in context of this picture, taken at the outhouse, sorry, bighouse, in ann arbor MSU at UofM game in 2010

love that pic

allright, back on topic, you should check out this post

http://kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... hilit=kips

only thing I would like to add is that I wouldn't bother timing the subvalves until you get both of installed and the subvalve shafts
the post says to advance them and try to line them up as it goes in...I wouldn't bother about it
once the subvalves and the shaft are in you can lift each individual subvalve up about 1/2 an inch and rotate them to line up the timing marks without moving the shaft
MUCH easier

now, as my 3 year old would say

GO GREEN

(just noticed this green smiley taking down a yellow one...priceless

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 06:14 pm Sep 11 2013

whoops? Quick like Nick to put on my green jersey and switch ----on the right side now---ha ha Many thanks for the help---and to the other fine gentlemen on this forum-----all your help earns another donation to the forum which I am happy to make. thanks------

I"ll get back to this thread when I've had a chance to work on the bike----and let you all know how it came out.

Don't know if that donation went----might have not done it correctly----but if not I'll check back and see and do it tili I get it right.

diymirage · Post by **diymirage** » 08:20 pm Sep 11 2013

its all good
the donations are ran through by a fellow member and he does have an actual life aswell so they may take several hours to show

I think it might be a setting on your control panel that wont allow you to receive PMs because you are obviously able to send them, the two are on the same basic supporters level

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 10:42 pm Sep 11 2013

I think there are a pretty special bunch of people on this forum---they distinguish themselves every time ----
I'm not very computer literate---and don't know how to 'open' my path so I can receive PM's----but I'll try. And I welcome any member here to email me at any time----I'll first try to provide that path to my email on this site but am thinking that would go through a similar path as a PM-? Is there a way I can show my direct email address somewhere on this site ---available to anyone who wants to use it?

I may have found out how to open the path such that I can receive PM's and Email from members-----I guess I had not known where to go to do that but I think I've just found out how----and I'm expecting that I can receive either a PM or an email now?

Post by **bufftester** » 12:03 am Sep 12 2013

Yea a mistimed subvalve will wonk your output, its probably open when it should be closed which will screw up the pressure wave and mirror a mistimed engine. We could have probably pointed you there right away with that tidbit of info, but then we wouldnt have hadd all the fun of armchair QBing lol

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 11:21 am Sep 12 2013

I didn't get that bit of information until ci coaxed it out of the boy when he delivered the bike to me------ I'm a little under the weather now but hoping to get back to working on it soon. I'll post when I have something to report. thanks all.

diymirage · Post by **diymirage** » 03:42 pm Sep 12 2013

Deseret Rider wrote:I didn't get that bit of information until ci coaxed it out of the boy when he delivered the bike to me------ I'm a little under the weather now but hoping to get back to working on it soon. I'll post when I have something to report. thanks all.

something tells me he knew as soon as he got on the gas and fell behind
he's probably been dragging his feet ever since

cant say I haven't had a few of those moments myself along the way

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 12:14 am Oct 04 2013

So much water has passed under the bridge---literally as well as figuratively---that I have not had a chance to work on the boys bike----but wanted to bump this thread up where I can find it as I will be reporting my results very shortly---- I'm pretty sure now that I will find an open sub-port based on what I have learned here on this forum and I will follow up with a report as promised when the job has been completed-------

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 12:30 pm Oct 17 2013

I have the cylinder on the bench---and find the gearing on the KIPS properly aligned----all timing marks correctly aligned. Thanks to all who provided help and advise----I will have to look elsewhere for the problem--------If I find the problem I'll post my findings here.

diymirage · Post by **diymirage** » 03:02 pm Oct 17 2013

correctly aligned...according to what ?

if I remember correctly there was a shop manual around that had a misprint in it with the KIPS swapped
(presuming you finally broke down and bought a manual)

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 06:05 pm Oct 17 2013

diymirage wrote:correctly aligned...according to what ?

if I remember correctly there was a shop manual around that had a misprint in it with the KIPS swapped
(presuming you finally broke down and bought a manual)

I would love to have a shop manual but my last attempt at downloading that failed-----Could you give me that link again----I will order it immediately (with my tail between my legs---ashamed that I don't have one since I am the grandfather seemingly responsible for the maintenance of a fleet of these bikes. Actually, my son is a very good mechanic but sometimes he is working out of state and it's easier for me to work on them------and since the KIPS was identified as a possible problem by myself I got to the the one to check that out. Now I have verified that the right side sub port opens and closes with the main port and the left side sub port is just the opposite----it's open when the main port is closed down to it's minimum. I think that is correct and I found my son had not err'd ---he got the gear in right .
So now I'm going to double check his jetting (138 main / 40 pilot))----that should be good for elevations above about 7000 feet?----my own bike is jetted at 140 / 45 and runs very strong----it actually will run just as well with a 42 pilot but doesn't start well with the 42 in winter---it gets pretty cold here.

Post by **bufftester** » 06:58 pm Oct 17 2013

Deseret Rider wrote:Now I have verified that the right side sub port opens and closes with the main port and the left side sub port is just the opposite----it's open when the main port is closed down to it's minimum. I think that is correct and I found my son had not err'd ---he got the gear in right

No, he did not get it right. When the main exhaust valve is closed, both subports should also be closed. When the main opens, both subports open. If you have one valve open and one closed, then the subports are doing basically nothing (i.e.: one is always open) and your top end is going to suffer in performance (not rev and pull like the others) and your bottom end is going to suffer as well (may seem soft or not as torquey).

You really need a manual but until then the web has a lot of resources. This link may help KDX top end

diymirage · Post by **diymirage** » 09:09 pm Oct 17 2013

good point buffy, really the BEST thing to do is look and see how the timing marks add up
that post buffy showed has some good pictures
but in short, the two subvalves should mirror one another

oh, and the manual can be downloaded here
http://www.cyclepedia.com/kawasaki-kdx2 ... ice-guide/

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 12:08 am Oct 18 2013

Oh boy! I have ordered the manual and will shortly read the KDX top end link------I had relied on the depiction showing here: http://www.justkdx.dirtrider.net/kips.html

Toggle down a bit to the depiction showing the sub ports action----I think that shows that the two sub ports are opposite? Is he wrong? Also, I saw the gears on the cylinder meshing as shown here:
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/hi_im_ ... 1.jpg.html (toggle through the pictures to find the gear mesh pics)

I thought I had it right after seeing the bike set up as depicted in the two links above------Also---the sub port shafts have never been removed---Is it possible to have one of the sub port gears 360 out?

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 12:30 am Oct 18 2013

Studying the depiction of the sub ports in the first link in my previous post----maybe it's just a matter of definition----I have been saying that the left port is 'open' ---and by that I mean that it is open to allow gas to enter the 'hollow' chamber formed by the 'KIPS" labeled cover o the left side-----while I think you fellows are regarding that as 'a 'closed sub port. So if it's just a matter of definition then would you agree that if I have it exactly as shown in this link then I have it right? Or am I still confused?

Post by **bufftester** » 12:51 am Oct 18 2013

I believe you are exactly right, definitions may be slightly different. I see where the confusion lies here. In that animation, just ignore the chamber on the left side (the resonator) and look at the subvalves in relation to the exhaust port. Then closed is when the subports are 90 degrees to the exhaust port (blocking exhaust from exiting the pipe) and open when they are parallel (not blocking exhaust from exiting pipe). After looking at the animation and rereading your description it sounds like they are correctly installed. I would double check them, when he originally dropped one out and put it back in it is possible he just got it misaligned by a tooth or two which could exhibit the symptoms you had described earlier in the thread. If nothing else, you'll get to know your engine better! lol

Deseret Rider · Post by **Deseret Rider** » 10:46 am Oct 18 2013

Thanks Bufftester-------Yes, it was just a question of sematics----and the gear tooth alignment is correct also. My original theory was based on the possibility that the he had misaligned the gears by a tooth or two---proved incorrect. I have re-jetted to a 140 main / 42 pilot ---a combination that is proven to work at the altitude we ride at. If the bike fails to pull like the others now I'll look into the 'timing' later ---when snow and winter grounds us---and will post on what I find there. I'm kind of curious anyway to see what the timing actually is and compare it to the other bikes ----though I'm not expecting any major breakthrough in that area.

diymirage · Post by **diymirage** » 02:55 pm Oct 18 2013

did we ever double check the gearing?

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