Clutch drag only when running and hot

Got questions? We got answers....
Post Reply
Adamnb1
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 02:30 pm Jun 19 2013
Country:

Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Adamnb1 »

My first post!
1998 KDX220H

This topic may very well elicit eye rolls from many of you, but please know that I’ve done my due diligence before posting, in that I’ve read everything I could find and tried all of it. At this point, I don’t know what else to try, hence my cry for help. I am completely in love with the bike.. so this nagging issue is a big thorn in my side.

-Hot or cold, I can ALWAYS push the bike in gear with clutch in.. it's not easy, but it will go.
-When started and cold, the clutch acts perfect (no drag at all)
-When completely warmed up (and I mean so hot that you can't touch the clutch cover without grimacing), the drag is immense. It pulls the bike forward and if I stop it with my feet, it will stall. Again, when it's hot like this, I can push it in gear when it's not running, but as soon as I start it and the plates are in motion, they don't want to stay separated and turn over each other.

This issue has existed before the below work, and it still exists now. Although, it used to drag all the time, and now it only drags when hot and running.

• new Wiesco basket
• drilled several holes in clutch hub for increased oil flow
• tried oem disks, tried new ECB DR disks
• Sharp machined side of metal plates facing towards engine, also tried away from engine
• Last fiber plate offset in slots at end of basket fins (and tried not offset)
• Plates are correct thickness, none warped, aren't blackened or anything
• tried with spring & seat in, tried with them out
• clutch pusher is not worn
• all washers in clutch assembly are installed correctly
• Actuator arm is set to correct angle with one washer shim in front of pusher and bearing
• tried OEM clutch springs and ECB HD Springs. All lengths measure well.
• Tried all kinds of oil.. made no difference with this issue (jaso ma light/heavy synthetic, light/heavy dino, ATF, Rotella T5 / T6)
• New clutch cable, new lever and perch, all adjusted correctly
• New kx500 rad cap 1.5 bar
• Radiator flushed, new 50/50 premixed added, bleed system

Thanks for your time guys – I appreciate any assistance
Last edited by Adamnb1 on 09:33 pm Aug 31 2013, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Julien D
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5858
Joined: 07:53 pm Nov 07 2008
Country: USA
Contact:

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Julien D »

This post is somewhat confusing. You should really not be able to easily push the bike in gear with clutch pulled with the engine off. Without centrifugal force to spin the oil out from between the clutch plates, there is nothing to break the surface tension, and it will drag. You can experience this with a brand new bike on the showroom floor.

As for the dragging when hot issue, If you noticed no difference with any different oil, I'm kind of at a loss. Most common cause of dragging would be a notched basket, but you have replaced that. Obviously something is not right.
Image
User avatar
rbates9
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 3164
Joined: 06:07 pm Apr 27 2010
Country:
Location: UPSTATE New York

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by rbates9 »

Julien D wrote:This post is somewhat confusing. You should really not be able to easily push the bike in gear with clutch pulled with the engine off. Without centrifugal force to spin the oil out from between the clutch plates, there is nothing to break the surface tension, and it will drag. You can experience this with a brand new bike on the showroom floor.

As for the dragging when hot issue, If you noticed no difference with any different oil, I'm kind of at a loss. Most common cause of dragging would be a notched basket, but you have replaced that. Obviously something is not right.
+1

I can't push my bike with the clutch in in gear and the engine off.
User avatar
adam728
Supporting Member
Posts: 388
Joined: 05:29 am Jul 29 2013
Country:
Location: Michigan

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by adam728 »

Did you replace the basket and still have the problem, or has the wiseco always been in place?

How is the hub? Any notching?

Did you try new steel plates as well, or just frictions?
Did you meaure the plates on a surface plate with feeler gauges to verify no warping?
I dont understand what you mean about offsetting the last friction.

2 things jump out at me about your description of the symptoms:
1: will drag and stall, then be perfectly disengaged on restart. To me that is saying something is binding until all load is removed, which typically means notching of the basket or hub.
2: only does it when hot, which makes me think something is dimensionally changing or warping with heat. The problem here is I would want to point my finger at the steel plates, but that should be a pretty consistent drag and not change with a stall/restart.

Finaly question/thought - any play in the basket or hub? Maybe a little bearing or bushing wear allows binding under load, then things line back up enough to function once load is removed (stall ans restart).

Sent via morse code
Adamnb1
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 02:30 pm Jun 19 2013
Country:

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Adamnb1 »

Julien D wrote:This post is somewhat confusing. You should really not be able to easily push the bike in gear with clutch pulled with the engine off. Without centrifugal force to spin the oil out from between the clutch plates, there is nothing to break the surface tension, and it will drag. You can experience this with a brand new bike on the showroom floor.

As for the dragging when hot issue, If you noticed no difference with any different oil, I'm kind of at a loss. Most common cause of dragging would be a notched basket, but you have replaced that. Obviously something is not right.

Hi Julien - I can't 'easily' push the bike in gear, but I can do it. When running and hot, the bike drags to the point of stalling..this drag isn't present *to that extent* when not running. That is all I was trying to say.
Adamnb1
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 02:30 pm Jun 19 2013
Country:

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Adamnb1 »

adam728 wrote:Did you replace the basket and still have the problem, or has the wiseco always been in place?

How is the hub? Any notching?

Did you try new steel plates as well, or just frictions?
Did you meaure the plates on a surface plate with feeler gauges to verify no warping?
I dont understand what you mean about offsetting the last friction.
2 things jump out at me about your description of the symptoms:
1: will drag and stall, then be perfectly disengaged on restart. To me that is saying something is binding until all load is removed, which typically means notching of the basket or hub.
2: only does it when hot, which makes me think something is dimensionally changing or warping with heat. The problem here is I would want to point my finger at the steel plates, but that should be a pretty consistent drag and not change with a stall/restart.
Finaly question/thought - any play in the basket or hub? Maybe a little bearing or bushing wear allows binding under load, then things line back up enough to function once load is removed (stall ans restart).

Sent via morse code


Thanks for you reply, adam728.

-As I mentioned, the issue existed before all the work listed and still exists now (new basket didn't fix issue).

-I tried new ECB DR clutch plates (friction and metals)

-Plates are correct thickness, none warped,

-Many people, including a few posts on this board, talk about offsetting the last friction plate into the supplied slots at the end of the fin's. either way, It didn't help this issue.

-"1: will drag and stall, then be perfectly disengaged on restart"
--It's still dragging the same on restart, I just meant that after it stalls in this hot state, I can still push it in gear with clutch in with little trouble..but as soon as it's started again, it drags like mad and will stall out if you attempt to stop the drag.
But I know what you are getting at.. it certainly seems that having a load makes all the difference here and something is perhaps binding.
The basket is fine.. and the hub seems in great shape too.. no grooves. I don't feel any play in these parts..
Adamnb1
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 02:30 pm Jun 19 2013
Country:

Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Adamnb1 »

could the bike simply be getting too hot? I'm not boiling over or anything..the plates don't look burnt, but the clutch cover is too hot to hold you hand on it, that's for sure. I would think that's normal.. .. but, is it? As I said, I'm getting a bit desperate and am willing to entertain any plausible avenue.
Thrahl
Member
Posts: 222
Joined: 08:51 am May 30 2012
Country:

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Thrahl »

If you are in neutral and start the bike up, then with the clutch pulled pop it in to first, does it thunk really hard and instantly stall, or do the RPMs just drop enough to where it can't really idle any more?
My KDX will drop the RPMs a decent amount, enough that I have my idle set pretty high when in neutral but a little low in gear.
My buddies YZ125 though can barely idle in gear. It tries to pull you forward and if you let off the gas it dies within a few seconds.
User avatar
rbates9
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 3164
Joined: 06:07 pm Apr 27 2010
Country:
Location: UPSTATE New York

Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by rbates9 »

I would start back at the beginning. I know you said everything is right. But if it was then you shouldn't be having problems.

Take a look at the parts pictures and your manual. You do have a manual don't you? And make sure that all of the spacers, washers, springs ect are correct and in the correct place. Do you have the two big bevel spring washers in right? Is there enough space in the basket groves for the tabs on the plate to expand with out binding? The heat of the clutch cover might be a little too much as well and that, to me makes me think that the clutch is slipping. You had said that you tried different oils but if you used a bad oil it may take several oil changes to get all of the bad stuff out. You may have to remove the clutch plates and clean them and start over. Good luck with it.
User avatar
Julien D
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5858
Joined: 07:53 pm Nov 07 2008
Country: USA
Contact:

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Julien D »

Good thought, rbates. I did a bit of a double take on the clutch cover being that hot as well.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 4
Image
Adamnb1
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 02:30 pm Jun 19 2013
Country:

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Adamnb1 »

Thrahl wrote:If you are in neutral and start the bike up, then with the clutch pulled pop it in to first, does it thunk really hard and instantly stall, or do the RPMs just drop enough to where it can't really idle any more?
My KDX will drop the RPMs a decent amount, enough that I have my idle set pretty high when in neutral but a little low in gear.
My buddies YZ125 though can barely idle in gear. It tries to pull you forward and if you let off the gas it dies within a few seconds.

Hi Thrahl, it's doesn't instantly stall, the RPMs will drop to where it can't idle anymore. It doesn't do this when cold, however, it works properly when cold.
"My buddies YZ125 though can barely idle in gear. It tries to pull you forward and if you let off the gas it dies within a few seconds."
Right..that's the problem I'm trying to fix.
Adamnb1
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 02:30 pm Jun 19 2013
Country:

Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Adamnb1 »

rbates9 wrote:I would start back at the beginning. I know you said everything is right. But if it was then you shouldn't be having problems.

Take a look at the parts pictures and your manual. You do have a manual don't you? And make sure that all of the spacers, washers, springs ect are correct and in the correct place. Do you have the two big bevel spring washers in right?
rbates9,
-I have both manuals (cyclepedia and oem).
-I have triple checked all washers, spacers and springs (measured all springs and replaced them with oem and hd also). I also had another person come over and disassemble and reassemble the whole thing, just in case I was missing something.
-"Do you have the two big bevel spring washers in right?" Yes, the spring and the spring seat is installed correctly with the seat on the hub first (furthest away from the engine), then the spring washer with it's widest side facing the engine - I have also tried it with them removed.
rbates9 wrote:...Is there enough space in the basket groves for the tabs on the plate to expand with out binding? The heat of the clutch cover might be a little too much as well and that, to me makes me think that the clutch is slipping. You had said that you tried different oils but if you used a bad oil it may take several oil changes to get all of the bad stuff out. You may have to remove the clutch plates and clean them and start over. Good luck with it.
-Very good point. So you are thinking that the slipping would cause the excessive heat, then the excessive heat would cause the plates to expand and bind. Between two of my many oil changes, I actually lightly sanded the frictions with 220 grit and cleaned all the plates with brake cleaner to get any residue off from the prior oil - but it's worth a try again for sure.
I also took it for a 15 min. ride the other day on the road in which I didn't use the clutch once and kept it at a low RPM the entire time..I simply wanted to limit the amount that clutch slippage could contribute to the heat. When I finally stopped, the cover had reached the same excessive temperature, and of course the clutch drag issue then showed it's ugly head. However, I do understand that the clutch could have still been slipping during this time..

does anyone have a simple way that I can determine if my bike is indeed reaching an unacceptable temperature? "the cover is too hot for me to touch for longer than 5 seconds" is just not scientific enough for me - :lol:

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the help so far. Any other assistance would be awesome. In the meantime., I'll perhaps deglaze the plates again and try another oil.
User avatar
6 Riders
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 2124
Joined: 12:58 pm May 01 2013
Country: USA
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by 6 Riders »

Did you soak the friction plates in oil before installing them? If so, what oil did you use? If not....you probably should.
newbbewb wrote:^what he said.
masterblaster wrote:Man 6 riders you rock.
*side note...I'm drunk, so try to read what I'm trying to say, instead of what I actually type
User avatar
Julien D
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5858
Joined: 07:53 pm Nov 07 2008
Country: USA
Contact:

Re: Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Julien D »

6 Riders wrote:Did you soak the friction plates in oil before installing them? If so, what oil did you use? If not....you probably should.
Definitely.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2
Image
Adamnb1
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 02:30 pm Jun 19 2013
Country:

Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Adamnb1 »

Yes, they were soaked. Think it was Lucas motorcycle oil. The instructions called for non synthetic for the soak. I've only used jaso ma certified oils.. other than the ATF and rotella t5.
User avatar
rbates9
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 3164
Joined: 06:07 pm Apr 27 2010
Country:
Location: UPSTATE New York

Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by rbates9 »

With my bike the clutch cover will get hot but I wouldn't say to the point that I can't hold my hand on it unless I have been really abusing the clutch on a nasty hill. But even then I don't have dragging issues.

Have you tried all oem (or equivalent) frictions and steel clutch plates?

When the clutch get hot and drags how is the clutch lever free play? And the clutch arm angle?

Can you verify that the clutch basket you have now has the same measurements as the stock basket? Maybe something is too tight there?

P.S. thanks for not getting pissy about people telling you to recheck and verify your work.
Adamnb1
Member
Posts: 70
Joined: 02:30 pm Jun 19 2013
Country:

Clutch drag only when running and hot

Post by Adamnb1 »

I am sooooooo happy right now.
talked to EBC support and they said I shouldn't have done the initial soak with synthetic oil..which I didn't see on the instructions, but it's on their website.
Desperate, I went and ordered a new clutch set (Sumo .. cheap as hell). I soaked them in Rotella 15 40 for a day. Tried it out today and my bike is FINALLY working like it should. I took it for a naaaaasty ass ride.. probably the hardest I've ever ridden it (lots of clutch work..rocks, mud, hills). When finished, the clutch cover was hot.. but not near as hot as before. I can find neutral no problem (it was literally impossible before), and I can now let it idle in first gear with clutch lever pulled.. it doesn't drag.
YES!!!!

Thanks for your help guys
Post Reply