Wheel Truing Articles

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m0rie
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Wheel Truing Articles

Post by m0rie »

I've been wanting to try and see if I could fix the tweaked rear wheel on my 89 for sometime. I found a couple of articles that might be useful if anybody else is contemplating the same sort of thing.

http://www.superhunky.com/nov00rsWheelTruing.html
http://www.superhunky.com/dec00rsWheelLacing.html
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Post by KDXGarage »

Thanks for the links.
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Post by gwhII »

I'll second that.

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Post by IdahoCharley »

I viewed the links and have a few comments that might help you do the job correctly the first time.

Comments
1. I notice that the article's referenced was refering to drum type hubs which are normally centered with the hub. I normally just measure the old off-set between the rim surface and the face of the disc. I use a two foot long level and an adjustable t-square. I set the level on top of the rim and measure from the top of the level to the face of the disc. The idea is to set the off-set the same on the new set-up as was on the old wheel.

After checking 4-6 points around the rim I should have an excellent idea on what my 'relative off-set' needs to be. Tighten down the lock screw on the adjustable T-square.

2. Taping the spokes together works well. I will zip-tie the spokes together on both sides of the inner tube nipple hole. But taping or z-tying all nine groups of nipples is likely better if this is your first time.

3. I will take the new rim and orient it to the old rim next. Nipples holes and tire lock holes and most importantly do the nipple hole angles match up???!!! If not - flip the rim over because you got it backwards. Once you have it oriented correctly mark the nipple hole on the new rim and set aside.

4. You can try to unscrew all the nipples if you want (usually a S/M will attempt this) but if the bike is more than a year or two old: you are eventually just going to grab a peanut grinder or semi-heavy duty cutters and grind or snipe all the spokes with in a one inche or so of the nipples. I then get rid of all the nipples and all the non zip-tied spokes leaving only the two groups of zip-tied spokes that were adjacent to the air nipple hole.

5. Place the new rim in position with correct orientation and stick the cut off spokes that are still zip-tied through the new rim's holes. Now start installing new spokes into the hub and the rim following the original spoke pattern. Run the nipples on only 3-4 turns until all spokes have been replaced and nipples started including the ones which originally zip-tied.

6. I normally then very lightly tighten the nipples on the spokes on the side of the wheel with the disc and attempt to get the disc off-set close. Then I evenly lightly tighten up the remainer of the spokes and nipples.

7. At this point you can install the hub and rim on the bike for final truing. I normally remove any up/down variance that I have in the wheel then move to the side to side variance. You do need to periodically check your disc off-set but by the time you have have the wheel trued up/down and side/side your spoke tension should be pretty even. Now is the last opportunity to adjust your off-set before torquing the spokes.

Measurement of your off-set should fairly uniform an within 25 thousands or so. (You should be able to get the disc into position without overtightening any spokes i.e. no popping sounds or over tight or lloose spokes) Tighten one spoke 1/4 turn spin the wheel 180 degrees and tighten that one: then tighten the adjacent spoke and spin the wheel back 180 degrees and tight the one adjacent to the first; etc etc until all 36 spokes are tighten 1/4 turn then recheck the offset. Repeat as necessary.) Once the off-set is set uniformily - it means your rim is parallel to the brake rotor - check your run out verically and side to side. (It should not have changed.)

The last step is to tighten all the spokes in a uniform fashion. The original linked article is the way I do it. Starting at a given point tighten the first spoke 1/4 turn then skip to spoke 4 and tighten 1/4 turn skip to spoke 7 etc. etc until all 36 spokes have been tightened. Repeat until your getting close to the final torque setting then use a inch pound wrench. When all is said and done your wheel should be very close to true vertcally and side to side.

8. Excess spoke which sticks through nipples will puncture you tube if you don't grind it flat with the top of the nipple.

NOTES - (1) The off-set can be referenced as the distance from the bottom of the level to the center line of the disc, or the face of the disc, or the mounting surface for the disc; depending upon referenced used, year the bike was produced and manufacture of the bike. Therefore, if you did not measure the original wheel offset and the shop tells you 3/4 inch offset be sure to ask whether it is to the face of the disc or to the disc mounting surface on the hub. These are the two most common references used unless you looking at the motorcylce's engineering design drawings which will typically reference the centerline of the brake disc.

(2) If you want to be able to adust the spoke tension down the road or true up the wheel you may want to dab a little anti-sieze or water proof grease on the nipples and spoke thread prior to installation. Please note this will reduce the torque required to properly tighten the spokes.

(3) You will likely notice one area on the rim which is out both verically and side to side. Look close and if this is where the rim was welded togther ignore it.
Last edited by IdahoCharley on 03:31 pm Sep 21 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by m0rie »

Wow - Thanks for the info IC. Question? Does the disc offset still apply when you are trying to "retrue" a tweaked wheel where you are not replacing all the spokes?
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Post by IdahoCharley »

MOrie - If your offset is not uniform your wheel will wobble a little and may not be centered..

What I have seen with the few tweaked wheels that I have worked on have been flat spots from rocks with occasional broken spokes from whatever. I would take a GUESS and say that most tweaked wheels will not have issues with rim off-set unless the wheel was serious tweaked in an serious accident. Something like bike head on into a tree, a boulder, over a cliff, nose landing into the face on a jump etc. I'm not talking about that level of damage.

After a collision with an object if I had wheel issues with broken spokes, bent rim, and thought I may have bent a rotor; I would remove the disc and make sure it was "flat" before using it as a reference for the off-set. Based upon my experience I would NOT expect to have too many issues if one or two spokes were broken and you were just looking at replacing those spokes.

Tweaked wheels ?? Its likely relative (what constitues tweaked? - the ones I've worked on, for the most part, have been able to be saved. The older rims could take a beating (and did due to lack of suspension) the newer ones made out of aluminium alloy worry me more due to the speeds that we push the bikes to on rough ground. Part of this is likely a little more caution as I grow older (a good thing). Rim are relatively cheap even new - compared to a hospital stay.

One of the articles in the original link had you puting a 2X4 in the center of the rim and hammering the rim edge back into shape. That is how I've done it (using a slight radius on the 2X4) for the flat spots: For correcting a bend on one edge you need to access what it likely will require to knock it out. It could be a small chunk of scrap pipe or a large scocket for removing axle nuts on a 4X4. I like to use chucks of wood for backing up the rim due to the ease of putting a radius or angle on them. The wood also does not mar the aluminium like steel. It will likely surprise you the first time how little force you need to effect a change on the rim's outer bead surface. There may be a similar surprise in how much force it takes to take out a flat spot in the hoop portion of the rim. Hope this helps someone.
Last edited by IdahoCharley on 03:57 pm Sep 21 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by KDXGarage »

Good info! If I may just add one little bit. The offset you mentioned is usually called dishing / dished in the bicycle wheel world.

Morie, check out Park Tools for some bicycle wheel truing stands. It will give you an idea on what to do on motorcycle wheel truing.
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Post by canyncarvr »

A properly torqued spoke set will tweak a brake rotor? ...so the cast hub will bend? Considering the spokes are set on an inner diameter from the rotor, that would take a whole lot of pressure on a flimsy rim.

That must ruin wheel bearings in short order...if you can even get the axle THRU the bearings.



Ignorance is bliss, I guess. I've never been concerned with anything other than radial/axial measurement. But then, I've only tweaked on existing rims. I haven't replaced one.

The 2x4 in the center part...I don't get a correct mental picture of that. Would you expand some, please? It's placed on edge (the 2x part) in the center (nipple) part? That doesn't seem right. The '2x4 on end in the center..'...means it's being used like a punch/drift? The opposite rim is 'supported' by the floor?

More bliss I guess...... :wink: I must be a pretty darn happy guy!!!

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Post by KDXer »

I think they are using the timber as a dolly sorta thing inside the rim where the tube sits. If that makes sense. Probably wrong though. :rolleyes: :mrgreen:
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Post by canyncarvr »

You pound (persuade) AGAINST a dolly...hammer in one hand, dolly in the other. Well, I do, anyway. That idea doesn't fit a softwood 2x4...I think.

Probably wrong though. :rolleyes:

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Post by IdahoCharley »

CC - Your correct - the hub does not get tweaked without breaking apart so maybe I did not explain it very well. The wheel hub and the mounting surface for the rotor remain fixed in that it is a one piece casting.

What you are adjusting is the relative geometic plane between the mounting surface of the hub's brake rotor and the geometic plane surface of the rim. Since they are connected with spokes you can pull or offset the rim and not have it parallel with the the brake rotor. You want the planes to be uniformily parallel - that is it in a nutshell - I think.

The brake rotor will not get tweaked by the spokes but possibly by a direct hit on a rock or other such source. Therefore, if the wheel has been in an accident with whatever and the rim has been bent: The relative off-set measurement that I was refering to may not be correct because the rotor may be bent. The other reference to tweaking the rotor disc into the correct off-set has to do with assemblying a new wheel. Where in the hub is loose and floating until you tighten up the spokes in a manner which will cause the two geometic planes to come into a parallel alignment with the correct off-set.

Concerning the use of a 2X4. KatDeeExer is correct in that the wood is centered in the tube area of the rim. A section of 2X4 on the floor with a radiused section matching a good part of the rim: A mallet is used to pound on the top of the rim located right over the top of the rim surfaced supported by the wood. Again this is a case by case basis depending upon what need to be straighten out. If just the outer edge is dinged in then like you possibly a dolly and hammer as you outlined.

Does this help clarify!!
Last edited by IdahoCharley on 03:37 pm Sep 21 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by canyncarvr »

I must needs go ponder my wheel....... :roll:

I'm putting the mounting tabs/flange for the rotor and the hub in the same category...they aren't moving. While it would be good to have the rim where it's supposed to be in conjunction with rotor (offset), if the rotor is bolted to the hub and the hub isn't moving, the relationship of the rotor to the caliper would not be an issue.

Wait...your last sentence..parallel!. I think that's what I'm missing in this...because I assumed that to be a given. I'd bet it would be close to impossible to have these two situations co-exist: Not parallel AND axially true. Possilble, yes. At all likely? Very un.

I'm sure when I get around to replacing my OEM rim it will be intuitively obvious to even a casual observer that I surely don't get it! :wink: I'll end up wonky, out of square, out of round, nonplanar, off, dished, dashed and twitterpated. Well...the later doesn't apply as an 'after'...I was that way afore I started I'm sure.

At least, I think so............

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Post by IdahoCharley »

CC - you were right AGAIN!!!!

I've done this enough that I thought I would comment and did not really think it through. My original write-up kept refering to alignment of the rotor which is ass backwards. The procedure is good (IMO) but your measuring off the rotor offset what you are adjusting is the off-set of the RIM!!!

The rotor position relative to the caliper will not be affected no matter if the wheel portion (spokes and rim) is bent into a pretzel. :roll:

When I answered your first inquiry I thought what can't he understand. Then this afternoon it suddenly donned on me that I had completely confused anyone with a lick of mechanical sense and so I :prayer: and give my original write-up a :butthead: nomination. :oops:

I've changed a few words in the original write-up an hope it is correct now - I need a drink!! :partyman:
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Post by KDXGarage »

Drink up and let the confusion end!! :grin:
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Post by m0rie »

Thanks again IC, I think i've got a pretty good grip on the procedure now.
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Post by KDXGarage »

You may want to mount up some sort of marking system to measure where the rim is before you start working on the wheel. When I say marking, I mean to have a way to measure how far it was out to the left, right and up/down. The front wheel would be easy to work on if mounted, but one would have to make sure to remount the rear wheel in the same position, as far as the axle sliding forward or backward. Maybe slide it all the way up, mount some markers (pencil ends or something), then remount slid all the way up.
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Post by canyncarvr »

I put the axle in a vise..pointing up. Thus the wheel sits without drifting. Maybe use a spacer if you need to position your dial indicator.

I use lots-o-bits of masking tape..marking 'A+.015' 'R-.010' and such for axial and radial measurements...hopefully remembering which way is + and which is -!! ;)

IC: I recognize that sort'a thing! Happens to me ALL the time!!! :rolleyes:

Right...AGAIN??? YeahHowdy! That count's gotta be up to almost two, now!

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Wheel Truing Articles

Post by ce.tv@hotmail.com »

PLS HELP

Where can i find the rim offsets for KDX 200 89-94

Thanks
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