Quick needle question

Got questions? We got answers....
User avatar
RBD
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 210
Joined: 02:00 am Jan 18 2005
Country:
Location: Portland, Oregon USA
Contact:

Post by RBD »

I'd imagine that he is warning against using the older carbs simply from the stand point of being worn out.

-Maurice
That's it in a nut shell :rolleyes:

Most all carbs I get from a eBay source are shot and it cost more to replace the parts than it would cost to get the modified AS carb

Ron
User avatar
KDXGarage
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 14047
Joined: 06:45 am Nov 01 2004
Country: United States of America
Location: AL, USA
Contact:

Post by KDXGarage »

RBD, are the 35mm PWK carbs on the 1989 - 1994 KDX200's physically different than the ones that come on the 1995 and newer KDX200's?

If someone were to buy a new, standard PWK35 carb, would it be the same as a KDX carb of any year, or are the KDX carbs specially modified for KDX specific fit? By this, I mean does Keihin make a special OEM only carb that the KDX's use. For example, Kawasaki has Kayaba to OEM-make some forks for them.

Thank you.
Thank you for participating on kdxrider.net. :bravo:
To post pictures from a device: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=24128
User avatar
m0rie
Supporting Member I
Supporting Member I
Posts: 2220
Joined: 10:25 pm Nov 29 2004
Country:
Location: Crescent City, CA

Post by m0rie »

>|<>QBB<
TD3 wrote:
One of the changes for them was to bring the jet block upto the same height as the 95+ carbs (pre 95 carbs have a 2mm lower jet block) as well as the rest of the rb mods.
How does this affect the jetting of the pre 95 carbs? Are most of the recommended setups based on the post 95 carbs?
Ron does modify the SLIDE to LEAN it.
What does he do to make it leaner?

My KDX is proving to be a PITA to jet so I'm considering a newer RB modded carb in the future.
The pre 95 PWK's have a lower jet block and a leaner (#6 vs #5) slide than the 95+ PWK's. The end result is that the pre 95 PWK's take about the same jetting but a different needle selection than the 95+ PWK's. The CGK is often recommended for the pre 95 carbs with a #6 slide. You will also tend to end up on the lower clip settings (1-2 vs 2-4) than you would on the 95+ PWK's

Ron cuts away more of the slope at the bottom of the slide to make it leaner.

-Maurice
1989 KDX 200
2007 TTR-50E
User avatar
m0rie
Supporting Member I
Supporting Member I
Posts: 2220
Joined: 10:25 pm Nov 29 2004
Country:
Location: Crescent City, CA

Post by m0rie »

>|<>QBB<
Jason wrote:RBD, are the 35mm PWK carbs on the 1989 - 1994 KDX200's physically different than the ones that come on the 1995 and newer KDX200's?

If someone were to buy a new, standard PWK35 carb, would it be the same as a KDX carb of any year, or are the KDX carbs specially modified for KDX specific fit? By this, I mean does Keihin make a special OEM only carb that the KDX's use. For example, Kawasaki has Kayaba to OEM-make some forks for them.

Thank you.
The carbs are similar/interchangable but do have some differences. The primary on is the 95+ KDX PWK's are based on the Airstryker PWK body. This means that they use the same slide as the Airstryker's. That slide will not work on the pre 95 PWK's because the jet block is too low (2mm) AFAIK.

-Maurice
1989 KDX 200
2007 TTR-50E
User avatar
RBD
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 210
Joined: 02:00 am Jan 18 2005
Country:
Location: Portland, Oregon USA
Contact:

Post by RBD »

m0rie is on the right track, so listen to him :supz:


An other big factor is that the OEM carb cap will not work on the KDX. The OEM 35 mm PWK has a straight out cable adjuster and the KDX has a bent or curved cable adjuster.

Also the early KDX carbs used a totally flat bottom slide and it was not plated. This causes the carb body to wear out.

Thank you,
Ron
Green Hornet
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 1455
Joined: 06:54 pm Aug 08 2005
Country:
Location: Orange County-New York
Contact:

Post by Green Hornet »

>|<>QBB<
RBD wrote:
I'd imagine that he is warning against using the older carbs simply from the stand point of being worn out.

-Maurice
That's it in a nut shell :rolleyes:

Most all carbs I get from a eBay source are shot and it cost more to replace the parts than it would cost to get the modified AS carb

Ron
Thats why I passed it to you all. I was inquiring to ron as what he would
prefer to mod the original 33mm or the 35mm(99 year), I picked up on
ebay. Which is on my bike now and working well :prayer:
Sorry Ron if there was a misunderstanding
"Growing Old is Mandatory, Growing Up is Optional"
2008 KLX450R
2008 DRZ400SM
2005 KDX 220R
1985 KDX 200A3
2005 KLX 125L (SONS)
2003 KTM 50SX Pro Jr
B Senior # 254/0092

http://sponsorhouse.loopd.com/Members/R ... fault.aspx
Thanks to my 2008 Sponsers:
Dunlop, SteelMX, Amsoil, Simpson, Pro Works Racing, Pro Moto Billet, SLAP Energy,Boyesen, Rhino Stands, SixSixOne/SunLine Moto for your support.
John W Read Jr
User avatar
KDXGarage
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 14047
Joined: 06:45 am Nov 01 2004
Country: United States of America
Location: AL, USA
Contact:

Post by KDXGarage »

So, the 1995 and newer KDX carbs are the exact same (except for jetting) as a standard off the shelf PWK35 except for the carb cap/cable?

Just to make sure, you are saying that the entire slide (not just the bottom part) on a 1994 and older KDX PWK35 is not plated and the '95 and newer ones are?

Thanks again!
Thank you for participating on kdxrider.net. :bravo:
To post pictures from a device: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=24128
TD3
Member
Posts: 50
Joined: 05:12 am Jun 03 2005
Country:
Location: Maine, USA

Post by TD3 »

Thanks for the replies mOrie, I have a few more ????
The pre 95 PWK's have a lower jet block
Is the "jet block" you're referring to the part that sticks up in the middle of the carb bore?
That slide will not work on the pre 95 PWK's because the jet block is too low (2mm) AFAIK.
I replaced the original worn out carb slide with a newer plated slide. This may be why I'm having trouble cleaning up the part throttle hesitation... :? I'll also guess that my carb body is also worn. :mad:
User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6943
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country: US
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr »

re: 'Is the jet block...the part..'

Yes. Where the jetscreen and the output of the needle jet (what the jet needle goes in and out of...what the main jet screws into) are.

I've not compared a newer slide to an older slide, but I'd be wondering about replacing parts with unlike parts...which is what sounds like happened.

Maybe it's not completely a 'will not work' thing, but a 'will make jetting a PITA' thing. Well, the former is pretty close to the latter..... ;)

Back to the original question..sorta.

There was reference made to CDave's Needle decoder info, but I didn't see a followup to that reference (like, 'Wow...that's great!!').

Everyone knows where that info is? Print it out and keep in in your service manual for reference. You will have a tough time finding all that information in any other place.

Re: Mr. Fredette's needle choice

He didn't care for the carb mod, either. Too picky to jet, he said. While there may have been some truth to that statement at one time, there has been a LOT of picky effort put into jetting a modified PWK by a lot of picky people, and I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The carb mod is definitely a very good thing, and a 'B' series needle is not the best choice for it.

If anyone is unclear as to where the needle decoding information is to be found, please say so. I want you LOOKING for it when the link is posted.

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!
Green Hornet
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 1455
Joined: 06:54 pm Aug 08 2005
Country:
Location: Orange County-New York
Contact:

Post by Green Hornet »

>|<>QBB<
canyncarvr wrote:
Re: Mr. Fredette's needle choice

He didn't care for the carb mod, either. Too picky to jet, he said. While there may have been some truth to that statement at one time, there has been a LOT of picky effort put into jetting a modified PWK by a lot of picky people, and I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The carb mod is definitely a very good thing, and a 'B' series needle is not the best choice for it.
CC-
He(Fredette) recommended the 1173(B-Needle) for a 35mm carb w/o the RBD Mod.
"Growing Old is Mandatory, Growing Up is Optional"
2008 KLX450R
2008 DRZ400SM
2005 KDX 220R
1985 KDX 200A3
2005 KLX 125L (SONS)
2003 KTM 50SX Pro Jr
B Senior # 254/0092

http://sponsorhouse.loopd.com/Members/R ... fault.aspx
Thanks to my 2008 Sponsers:
Dunlop, SteelMX, Amsoil, Simpson, Pro Works Racing, Pro Moto Billet, SLAP Energy,Boyesen, Rhino Stands, SixSixOne/SunLine Moto for your support.
John W Read Jr
User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6943
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country: US
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr »

Understood.

My point was that his preference of the Kawi needle when taken in conjunction with his carb preference (regarding modification) may raise a question or two.

Everyone is welcome to ride with whatever suits them best, makes them happy. I'd say JD is a picky jetter...and his choice for the PWK is not the Kawi needle.

My choice is exactly that...my choice. I don't use it because someone else thought it was 'the' correct needle, but because I like it....frankly, anyone elses' opinion notwithstanding. AND that doesn't necessarily make my choice 'right' for anyone else, either!

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!
User avatar
m0rie
Supporting Member I
Supporting Member I
Posts: 2220
Joined: 10:25 pm Nov 29 2004
Country:
Location: Crescent City, CA

Post by m0rie »

>|<>QBB<
Green Hornet wrote:>|<>QBB<
canyncarvr wrote:
Re: Mr. Fredette's needle choice

He didn't care for the carb mod, either. Too picky to jet, he said. While there may have been some truth to that statement at one time, there has been a LOT of picky effort put into jetting a modified PWK by a lot of picky people, and I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The carb mod is definitely a very good thing, and a 'B' series needle is not the best choice for it.
CC-
He(Fredette) recommended the 1173(B-Needle) for a 35mm carb w/o the RBD Mod.
Something to keep in mind: The jetting concepts that are used for jetting the RB carb mod are the same that are used for the non-RB'd carbs. When Ron recuts the slide and puts the divider in this changes the specific needles that respond well with the modified carb. But it doesn't change the methodology behind choosing a needle. Needles are a way to tune the power delivery (ie. personality) of the carb. As such they should be selected to tailor that delivery to your riding style. Understand the reason for a specific needle selection and you'll be in a lot better shape than just putting in whatever the flavor of the week needle is.

-Maurice
1989 KDX 200
2007 TTR-50E
Green Hornet
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 1455
Joined: 06:54 pm Aug 08 2005
Country:
Location: Orange County-New York
Contact:

Post by Green Hornet »

I understand fully the changes different needles make. Just stating what I was told by a well known rider, what I may like in a STOCK setup. When the carb mods come into place, it is easy enough to figure out that other types of needles are going to give the power delivery a more favorable personality. :wink:
"Growing Old is Mandatory, Growing Up is Optional"
2008 KLX450R
2008 DRZ400SM
2005 KDX 220R
1985 KDX 200A3
2005 KLX 125L (SONS)
2003 KTM 50SX Pro Jr
B Senior # 254/0092

http://sponsorhouse.loopd.com/Members/R ... fault.aspx
Thanks to my 2008 Sponsers:
Dunlop, SteelMX, Amsoil, Simpson, Pro Works Racing, Pro Moto Billet, SLAP Energy,Boyesen, Rhino Stands, SixSixOne/SunLine Moto for your support.
John W Read Jr
Post Reply