sluggish 220

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Re: sluggish 220

Postby diymirage » 06:50 am Jan 17 2013

cant tell from the pictures, but on the top of the shaft there is a little pin, that pin should line up with a hole in the sprocket looking thingy which actually turns the KIPS, is that lined up right?

iether way, its clear from the second to last picture that your timing is off
you can try to rectify it without pulling the head BUT that is only if the subvalves are timed right

if they are all you need to do is loosen the sprocket from the other side of the shaft and slide the shaft out far enough so you can fix the timing there, then time the other side and put it back together
i would definatly give that a shot before i tore the head off
newbbewb wrote:DIYmirage has it right.


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Re: sluggish 220

Postby jeeptech1 » 10:31 am Jan 17 2013

No the dot and the pin don't line up. I'll try timing without pulling the jug. The issue is where the pin is placing the comb thing on the kips shaft. The comb is hitting the cover for the kips gears.
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Re: sluggish 220

Postby diymirage » 05:05 pm Jan 17 2013

jeeptech1 wrote:No the dot and the pin don't line up. I'll try timing without pulling the jug. The issue is where the pin is placing the comb thing on the kips shaft. The comb is hitting the cover for the kips gears.


that would lead me to believe that your actual sub valve is timed wrong aswell
the shaft with a comb on it has another comb on the other hand that actually actuates the subvalve
IF you can NOT move this shaft in any further to get the timing right i would suspect the sub valve itself is out of time aswell
newbbewb wrote:DIYmirage has it right.


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-1996 KDX 200 plated street toy (barney edition)
-2003 Yamaha TTR125-L (wifeys bike)
-1997 KDX 220 project bike
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sluggish 220

Postby rbates9 » 05:59 pm Jan 17 2013

Some of the repair manuals have the KIPS valve assembly backward. It would be worth your time to start over and make sure EVERYTHING is installed and timed correctly. If you look up thru the exhaust port you should be able to see all three valves, and see that they are opening and closing when they are supposed to and all the way.
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Re: sluggish 220

Postby scheckaet » 06:00 pm Jan 17 2013

+1
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Re: sluggish 220

Postby jeeptech1 » 07:04 pm Jan 17 2013

I'm gonna try to get everything in the cylinder timed correctly tonight. I'm still concerned about the actuator shaft timing from the crank cuz it doesn't look right and regardless of the cylinder timing it should not hit the kips cover when it opens

Image

like the one at the bottom of the page http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/657765 ... to-kdx200/
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Re: sluggish 220

Postby scheckaet » 07:38 pm Jan 17 2013

there's only one way to put the claw on the shaft since it has a small hole that fits the pin on the shaft.
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sluggish 220

Postby jeeptech1 » 08:32 pm Jan 17 2013

Exactly. But mine doesn't sit like the one in the picture I put a link to above
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sluggish 220

Postby jeeptech1 » 12:47 am Jan 18 2013

well pulled the jug and found that both sub valves were 180 out of time. figured out that the actauator rod coming from the crank case was machined wrong or something at the factory. the dowl pin is not quite in the same location (causing the comb thingy to be 2 teeth off) as other pictures i have studied. so new shaft and retime the valveing and it should be a completely different animal! gonna switch to atf since i can clean the cases out well while im at it.
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Postby scheckaet » 01:31 am Jan 18 2013

please post pics of shaft.
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Postby jeeptech1 » 01:48 am Jan 18 2013

I ordered a new shaft and will take pics when it gets here its kinda hard to tell otherwise. If you go to the 1st page of this thread, under my pic of the rod/comb I posted a link to a forum with a pic of a good rod/comb assembled. If you compare them mine is about 2 teeth off with everything assembled.
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sluggish 220

Postby canyncarvr » 03:14 pm Jan 22 2013

I was just looking for pics of bent pins...but...


The chance of the part being machined wrong is slim. Twisted? Doubtful.

In any case, the POSITION of the claw gear pin on the top of the rod is dictated by where the pin sits in the slot at the bottom.

I can't tell if the pin at the bottom is bent or not, but consider:

You said you had both subport drums out of whack, so the PO didn't know what he was doing. Why think he supported the governor shaft when he wrenched on that LHT nut on top?

No reason to think that. Therefore, chances of damage to the bottom of the governor shaft pin are about perfect.

The KIPS goes together ONE way. That's it. There is no 'about' to it. AND...it is easy-peasy to get it wrong. Example: Time everything right, but when tightening the nut under the slotted LH cover, you move the rack (the rod between the main shaft and the subport drum) because you don't support IT against movement. When that rack moves, the drum moves.

The KIpS is not 'in time' anymore. The now binding LH rack/drum (because it no longer fully closes) stops everything else from moving as far as it should.

It's hard to see the timing marks on the subport drum gears. I've used a spot of red paint on those marks to make 'em easier to see.

When you're all done putting the KIPS parts in the jug, VERIFY everything is good by manually activating the KIPS while looking up into the exhaust port. The two drums should be perfectly syncronized. They 'close' to the same relative position, and open to the same relative position.

The main valve will take care of itself. Make sure the LH rack didn't move on reassy.

With the KIPS parts in the cylinder 'at rest' (subport drums 'closed') and the actuator spring in the case extended (also at rest), all that's left is to put the 'claw' gear on the governor shaft over the pin, SUPPORT the shaft when you tighten the LHT nut.

Doesn't have to be a problem, but any movement/activation of the centrifugal spring/weight in the case by rotating the top of the governor rod when it is NOT connected to the cylinder parts is begging for trouble. You are forcing the system BACKWARDS from the way it generally works. You are reversing the drive/driven association. The bottom spring assembly is going to 'open' only to the extent the spring is compressed by the spinning weights. When it is fully 'open'..the force on the pin on the bottom of the governor shaft is zero.

Is the force on that pin also zero when you WRENCH on it from the top?

Nope.

Can you FEEL when the slot movement is maxed?

Yep.

...and one liddle biddy bit after that?

You just bent the pin.

Activating the assembly with everything connected is safer..as long everything is timed correctly.

Yes. Easy-peasy to get it wrong. Also happens to be easy-peasy to get it RIGHT!


A BTW: I've removed the RH subport drum with the cylinder still attached, but it turned out not to be worth the time I thought I would save. If you're working on the KIPS parts...pull the jug.

IMO..your mileage may vary...no warranty expressed or implied..no animals were harmed during the typing of this post. Not in the same room as was the keyboard being typed on anyway.

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Re: sluggish 220

Postby jeeptech1 » 08:36 pm Jan 22 2013

ok. Got my new shaft in today. Rod was def. The issue. Sorry canyncarvr I didn't see your post til now ( no disrespect intended). I ended up pulling the jug. Here's the rods right is new one. [img Image [/img]
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Re: sluggish 220

Postby jeeptech1 » 01:12 am Jan 23 2013

got it put back together! I can now say I understand how kips works! Everything works correctly now and the power valve moves like it should. Now if only the weather would cooperate so I can go ride it! Thanks to everyone for the help given, truly the best kdx site!
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sluggish 220

Postby canyncarvr » 01:00 pm Jan 23 2013

Sorry...I'm kind'a coming up with blankness on your pic.


I see the shafts are sitting different, the one on the right is sitting some CCW to the one on the left. I don't make out what the grey parts are. And the segmented gear (claw) is at the top?

What about the bottom..where the pin is that bolts onto the governor rod. THAT end wasn't damaged?

IF it's the top of the rod that's bent that bad, WHAT happened to it? Someone tried reefing the cylinder off the cases without disconnecting the KIPS drive?

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Postby scheckaet » 01:47 pm Jan 23 2013

on the left: looks like the pin for the claw aligns with the hole on the shaft
on the right: they don't.
this leads me to believe the top part (with pin for the claw) rotated enough to do the damage and have everything not lined up properly. If i were to guess, I'd say the PO didn't know this was a left threaded nut on the claw and man handled it to the point it turned it on the shaft, I'm surprised it didn't strip / break the threaded top of the shaft :roll:
Image
and / or destroyed the actuator completely.
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Postby jeeptech1 » 04:02 pm Jan 23 2013

yep the dowel pin to the big hole(which lines up with the mounting flat spot for the governor rod) relationship is different from one to the other. i honestly am not sure how or what cuased it. especially considering that the shaft looks like its one solid machined part! but i had the bike tore down all the way and inspected everything and nothing else was bent/broken so not really sure what cuased it. the shaft even looked brand new when i pulled it apart with no evidence of torture applied. but everything is good now. hopefully this thread will help someone in the future.
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Postby scheckaet » 06:51 pm Jan 23 2013

still doesn't look right on the last pic
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Postby jeeptech1 » 01:22 am Jan 24 2013

All the marks for the pawl line up and it doesn't hit the cover so I guess looks can be deceiving?
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