CEL/DEL update 5

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cornishwrecker220
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

Dispite swopping for another 35mm kdx 200 carb i still could not dial the jetting in as clean as i wanted ..again i tried both needles & various jets yet couldnt get rid of the bottom end just off throttle blubber..however out of the 2 needles the CEL did perform best albeit still a tad smokey throughout the rev range..perhaps a BEL needle may cure this ?.. to be honest i really cant be asked to mess around with it any longer...out of curiosity ( & after reading what steve posted) i reinstalled my OE 33mm carb with its 42 pilot, 145 main, 1173l needle with the clip in the 2nd from top position combined this with the new 6* slide instead of the OE 5* &.........the bike runs really good! ..idles as it should,is crisper on the throttle & pulls great plus very very little, if any smoke..its quite hard to compare the performance from the 33mm carb against the 35mm now, as the jetting is much cleaner..as i ride the same trails day in day out i look forward to running the 33mm carb on my usual trails & compare it against how the 35mm behaved, i`ll put up a post soon!
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fuzzy
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Re: CEL/DEL update 5

Post by fuzzy »

Needle will not make up for poor overall jetting. Sounds like your 33 is jetted well, while the 35 is not.
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cornishwrecker220
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

before i installed the CEL/DEL i was running a 35mm carb off a 98 200..pilot 42, main 152 (kdx 220 needle)..bike ran well & idled fine etc, its only since i installed the CEL/DEL that the jetting has been really difficult to set up & i can`t get it dialled in no matter what..its been a bit of a headache...it seems that the OE needle for the 220 works well with minor tweeks on either the 33 or 35mm carb, i was curious to see what gains could be had by installing a CEL/DEL as price wise they arent that expensive..it hasnt worked on my 220 as well as i had hoped.
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Re: CEL/DEL update 5

Post by DBragg »

The CEL is generally a richer needle than the OE KDX unit. Its particularly richer through 1/8th throttle, similar at 1/4 throttle and then gets rich again (on a relative scale). Off idle blubber is generally associated with a rich condition, which runs consistent with the fact that the CEL is richer off idle than stock.

What method are you using to set your pilot screw? If you have to go more than 2 and 1/4 turns out to get crisp off idle response, you need a smaller pilot. The text book target pilot screw setting is 1 and 1/2 turns. If you are within a 1/2 turn of that you are generally OK. If your pilot is in the ball park you have other options. You could try a few steps leaner on the needle starting diameter, for example a CEN. You could try a leaner slide (it sounds like you may already have one).

I doubt the taper “C” is the problem here. Its likely your blues can be solved with a little bit of brass, tweaking, and patience.

Also, you should get a similar WFO mixture by going one main jet smaller with the CEL as opposed to the 1173 needle. For example, if you are properly jetted with a 165 main on the 1173, a 162 would be a good place to start on the CEX needle.

Not to be too redundant but the pilot/mixture screw is pretty important for off idle response. Get that pilot circuit dialed, and I think you will be a happy camper.

:partyman:
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

I have tried a range of both pilot & main jets along with the leaner *6 slide but to no avail...( have posted findings previously ).
Both CEL/DEL did not perform well on my 220 which leads me to believe that dispite trying various jets etc a leaner needle was required, i am running a boyesen rad valve which is sensitive & does require leaner fueling but i dont believe this could of up-set my jetting while dialing in the aftermarket needles...the part that really confused me was while why my engine was on tick-over, if i turned the throttle slightly & took up the slack, just when the throttle began to open ..say 2mm the bike would appear to run rich like the choke was on, once you opened the throttle it would clear...this was the `just off throttle burble` i experienced even when running both needles..a little worse with the DEL. :hmm:
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rbates9
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by rbates9 »

Again, good info. But, you still can't bring your self to keep it all in one topic?
cornishwrecker220
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

rbates9 wrote:Again, good info. But, you still can't bring your self to keep it all in one topic?
Good morning mr bates...i was wondering when you would be along :lol:
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by DBragg »

Well, sounds like you have covered the basics. Having looked at one of your other posts it looks like there is a possibility that the jet block oring is shot. Certainly check that oring. Beyond that, I would take a good look at the emulsion tube (where the needle plunges into the carb body) and see if its worn. Its something that you may or may not see with your naked eye. But if the tube is worn oblong its going to let more fuel pass through and cause a rich condition. You might be able to compensate with a leaner starting diameter needle, but there are no guarantees. Emulsion tubes are not replaceable in Keihin PWK carbs.

Good luck and keep plugging away. Keep us updated.
cornishwrecker220
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

Installed my OE 33mm carb on sunday with its stock jetting & went for a ride with friends..knock me down,i still have the unusual idle when warm combined with the weird just off throttle blubber & the just off throttle, like the choke is on symptoms as before!! could this be fuel or eletrical thats causing these problems..its not sucking in gbox oil from the crank seal, & i`ve removed the stator cover which was clean & dry inside plus the rpms didnt go up or down when i sprayed contact cleaner around the stator so i`m guessing its not crank seals causing the funny idle..the head/base gaskets are all good with no leaks & it holds pressure ok,i doubt all 3 carbs can have a bad jet block seal as they worked fine a few months ago..perhaps the stator/pick up coil may be playing up??...i am going to remove the rad valve & check the rubber boot for tears along with the reeds for wear to see if this maybe causing the lean/rich symptoms?? if these are fine then i`m stumped :hmm:
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

removed the rad valve today & inspected the reeds which seemed to be in good order..not frayed & were seating fine, i decided to replace the reeds as these have been on my bike for the past 3 years or more. One thing i did notice was that the rad valve rubber boot seemed to have stretched..the diameter is some 3 to 4 mm larger than the carb/reed valve body so when you tighten down the clamps this formes a buldge & a lip on the inside doesnt line up which i`m thinking when fuel passes through from the carb perhaps this is causing some disruption to the fuel delivery?? i have ordered up a new boot with clamps but as santa is busy i doubt it will arrive til the new year now :sad:
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

Happy new year to everyone hope you all had a great time over the festive period....
My new rad valve boot arrived the other day so i was keen to install it & go for a ride. The first thing i noticed was just how much smaller it was compared to the one i removed! the new one was a very firm fit on both the carb & rad valve & lined the carb & rad valve up perfectly , i decided to run the 35mm kdx 200 carb with the kdx 220 needle with the clip in the 2nd position, 40 pilot jet, 152 main & air screw 1 3/4 turns out..bike ran well & pulls good with very little smoke, the idle is as it should & the low end burble i had experienced before is now virtually non existant evn on idle when you turn the throttle the rich like symptoms i had (like if the choke was on ) has now gone which tells me the problems i had previously was all down to the rubber rad valve boot somehow over time had expanded, its been on my bike for 3 years so wether a cleaning agent or running super unleaded fuel which contains ethanol caused this i do not know,anyway its good to have the bike running good again..i like the settings i have now so dont know if i`ll try running different needles again if i do i may try a BEL as the CEL was better than the DEL which was richer..i would go as far as saying that on a kdx 220 the CEL/DEL were too rich given the nature of how a 220 is ported & performs compared to the 200..the 220 is more of a woods bike so requires a leaner/cleaner jetting for the lower end/ mid range , they dont have the higher end rev out of the 200 anyway so no real need for the extra fuel as it would only be a waste on this bike.
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fuzzy
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Re: CEL/DEL update 5

Post by fuzzy »

Has it ever run clean without the RAD valve in it? I had one that game me some tuning woes. The DFIII seems to like the KDX much better.
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cornishwrecker220
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

i remember some time ago i did replace the rad valve with my OE reed cage as the rad valve boot had split so i decided to run the stock cage whilst i was waiting for the replacement boot to arrive...the bike didnt have the same pull with the stock cage as it did before the rad valve boot had split...ive not tried the VF3 so cant compare against the boyesen or stock cage..the rad valve does work ..if jeff fredette & eric gore recomends them then its good enough for me ..VF is a different design & if i see one cheap enough then i may be tempted..the jetting on my kdx has always been a little strange, i have seen a video somewhere on youtube where the crankcases on kawasaki kx/kdx have casting flaws around the stator area which causes leaks..i have not done a leak down test on my kdx but when i removed the flywheel a few weeks ago i didnt notice any oil in & around that area. I am thinking of doing a full rebuild this year as my bike has done well over 5000 miles on its original bottom end..i think the crank seals have hardened over time & the main bearings arent as smooth as they were , while its apart i`ll have the stator checked aswell...best i start saving my money!
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CEL/DEL update 5

Post by canyncarvr »

[pointless comment]

Trying to jet your bike with a rad valve.......

It's like trying to polish your car when there is a pile of poo in the trunk.

You can polish it to a gleaming shine, a gnat's a$$ of perfection!


...but it still stinks! :whistle:


Don't care who recommends 'em, either.

[/pointless comment]

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