CEL/DEL part 4

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cornishwrecker220
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CEL/DEL part 4

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

I finnished work early today so i thought i would crack on & install the DEL needle, i kept the same carb settings as i did when i was running the CEL ..38 pilot, 150 main , air screw 2 turns out.. DEL needle clip 2nd from the top. First thing i noticed was the low end burble i experienced with the CEL was still there when running the DEL! , the mid range pull was good & continued right up through to the top, i noticed that the bike didnt smoke as much as it did when i ran the CEL needle..i returned home & installed the needle clip on its top setting...burble was still there ,very little smoke if any on mid/wide open throttle, the pull was very good & not too aggressive like it was with the CEL, yet the front would still lift in the first 3 gears!..i rode a few laps around a local farmers grassy field & quite liked the way the power was delivered..the bike did idle better after tweeking the air screw back to 1 3/4.. however i have discovered that whilst the bike is on idle if i gentley turn the throttle to the point where the slack is no more on the cable, then just turn it till the slide starts to open the idle drops & the bike sounds like it is flooding (kinda like when you screw in the air screw fully ) & will almost stall...now i`m not sure as to why it does this?? perhaps this is the cause where i am getting the low end just off throttle burble from?? i have checked the float hight & it was ok, the whole carb was cleaned before i started testing the needles, i know the reeds are good as i did a top end rebuild some 700 miles ago...i will try & install the 35 pilot jet & see if this helps...if it doesnt work i may have to run my OE needle & jets & see if it still does this.
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Julien D
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Re: CEL/DEL part 4

Post by Julien D »

By design, your simple carb can not provide the perfect amount of fuel and air for every combination of RPM range and throttle position. It's a compromise. As you get closer to perfectly jetted, "rolling on" the throttle, and throttle position for a particular RPM range, becomes much more important. As you've noticed, overall performance is increased, but throttle position becomes much more important. A necessary side-effect. If you're probably jetted for best performance, the engine will not tolerate flipping the throttle WFO at low RPM as well as a pig rich configuration such as the stock jetting. Really, that's fine, because there is no need to snap the throttle wide open from idle. Rolling on will almost always result in faster acceleration.
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suzuki 166
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Re: CEL/DEL part 4

Post by suzuki 166 »

my bike had the low end bog problem just off idle changing the needle to a cgk has solved this the bike has loads more power the bottom is slightly rich im running a 42 pilot jet and a 152 main when i put the new needle in i also replaced the float needle this could have also been part of the problem.
cornishwrecker220
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CEL/DEL part 4

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

i inspected the float valve & float height when i stripped/cleaned the carb before the instalation of the new pilot jet & everything was good..if the valve was worn or had dirt in it i would expect fuel would continue to flow out of the overflow..which it doesnt..its strange how the bike appears to run rich just when the slide starts to open & you hold it there, say 2 mm you can hear the exhaust note change like the choke is on, open the throttle slowly & past this it sounds crisp & revs fine ..it almost seems worse with the DEL needle than with the CEL,..yet the DEL has a leaner taper than the CEL,the weather today was a little cooler than yesterday & the bike did take a little more time to warm up ...i will try the 35 pilot perhaps tomorrow if i have time.
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Re: CEL/DEL part 4

Post by Julien D »

Sounds good. I appreciate these posts of your testing. Good stuff!
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rbates9
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CEL/DEL part 4

Post by rbates9 »

Good testing, but it probably could have been all in one thread. :wink:
cornishwrecker220
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CEL/DEL part 4

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

rbates9 wrote:Good testing, but it probably could have been all in one thread. :wink:
This is true but as i have other commitments & work shifts i cant get out to ride & test everything in one day, i wish i could..so when i do, i have to post my findings on the day else i may forget, besides i may not get another chance for a while...it makes interesting reading tho! :grin:
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Re: CEL/DEL part 4

Post by Julien D »

I think rbates point is that you could have posted the individual tests in one thread. This way the info is all in one place and easy to find. Doesn't mean all the posts have to be on the same day. :)
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cornishwrecker220
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Re: CEL/DEL part 4

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

Ah i see...to be honest i didnt think the testing was going to take as long as it has or as tricky...i`m hoping that the next test will be the last as i`m getting tired of changing this for that & so on :hmm:
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CEL/DEL part 4

Post by Steve_K »

cornishwrecker220 wrote:i inspected the float valve & float height when i stripped/cleaned the carb before the instalation of the new pilot jet & everything was good..if the valve was worn or had dirt in it i would expect fuel would continue to flow out of the overflow..which it doesnt..its strange how the bike appears to run rich just when the slide starts to open & you hold it there, say 2 mm you can hear the exhaust note change like the choke is on, open the throttle slowly & past this it sounds crisp & revs fine ..it almost seems worse with the DEL needle than with the CEL,..yet the DEL has a leaner taper than the CEL,the weather today was a little cooler than yesterday & the bike did take a little more time to warm up ...i will try the 35 pilot perhaps tomorrow if i have time.
FYI.
The DEL has a richer taper then a CEL.
taper
OEM # keihin #
11 B leaner
13 C
14 D
20 E
22 F
30 J richer

The oem # refers to the angle of the taper. 11 deg. is less taper whick means a bigger point at the end of the needle. 14 deg. taper comes to a point faster. so the point, end of the needle is smaller, which lets more fuel flow.

If you are having a rich condition at 1/4 and cannot jet it out. You jet block o ring is most likly bad. I just replaced my son's on his 98 220. It defently helped. But like you said. the 220 with the stock 33 carb run rich at 1/8-3/8 thottle. I have fixed my son's by recutting the slide to a #7. The jetting on his bike right now is 40, 1173 1st, 150
cornishwrecker220
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Re: CEL/DEL part 4

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

Thanks for the info steve its useful to know that the DEL is RICHER than the CEL (i thought it was the other way round?) i have another pwk 35 carb here which i`ll try out again with the CEL & if i still cant jet it right then i will re-install my 33mm carb along with its original jetting plus a new 6* slide (which i have only used once) & go from there..you also may be correct about the jet block O ring as when i pulled the float bowl off yesterday i noticed some black bits in the bottom of the bowl..disentergrated O ring perhaps.
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Re: CEL/DEL part 4

Post by Steve_K »

Maybe. You and test to see if the jet block oring has gone bad.
Turn the carb upside down.
Mount it in vise
Take all jet and needle and floats off carb
Install some vent tubes on the vents, make sure they are pointing up.
FIll the carb with fuel to the rim.
Now look and see if the jet block is leaking though the needle hole. If that is ok then, blow reduced air thought the jet passages on the carb. If you use to high preasure you can blow out one part of the oring. And make a leak. I run my reg. on my compressor at 30psi when doing this test. If the oring is bad you will see air bubbles. 2 of the 4 pwk's I own had bad jet block orings.
steve
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