Spoo... but great performance!

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Indawoods
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Spoo... but great performance!

Post by Indawoods »

Starting out this last holiday weekend I was getting a hesitation off the throttle. So, I went back to jetting 101
and remembered to drop the clip on the needle. That did the trick... responsive right off idle, lofts over logs and ruts were immediate and ran like a stripEd Ape. One side effect... spooge!

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Looks ugly but the benefits that I gained make it worth having to clean the hole after riding.....

This once again confirms... Do not jet for spooge! :wink:
Last edited by Indawoods on 08:31 pm Nov 03 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by IdahoCharley »

That is kind of my take on it also Indawoods! Its all about the trip and not the destination - a responsive bike that will torque its way up the trail is likely one that will spooge a little. Wiping the hole and changing the packing a little more frequent is a small price to pay IMO. Clean and completely dry exhaust tips are a lot more feasible for riders in SX or MX who are on the gas hard. :supz:
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Post by fulltiltboogie »

>|<>QBB<
IdahoCharley wrote: Clean and completely dry exhaust tips are a lot more feasible for riders in SX or MX who are on the gas hard. :supz:
And your not on the gas hard on a KDX? I ring mine out every time I ride it. Have to wind it out to squeeze all its got from its slightly wimpy motor. I'm sure your bike ran great but I bet it could be better. That is quite a bit of un-burnt fuel spooging out the back. Just think if it were burning all that extra at optimum.
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Post by Indawoods »

I rang mine out plenty... :wink: And that motor is more than you can use in tight woods... just a fact.

If I drop the needle, it hesitates but runs super clean... no spooge. I can't take the hesitation.....
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Post by canyncarvr »

Jetting 101 says 'airscrew', don't it?

Especially with a modified carb.

The amount of 'power' you have sticking to the S/A tip over a weekend...or even a moderate ride is zip.point.

You're on DEK-4 now? That's where it should be anyway..screw spoo!!

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Post by 4Rider »

OK, now I'll really flaunt my ignorance:

It almost sounds like there are two issues going on here. The first is the fuel/air ratio affecting performance, and the second is the oil/fuel ratio affecting lubrication, and as secondary factor, complete combustion of the lubricating oil. It seems that you have experimented enough to find an optimal fuel/air ratio (mixture) based on performance. No hesitation, good power etc. Have you considered tinkering with the oil/fuel mixture? An excess of oil emitting from the exhaust indicates that there is a surplus of oil going through the engine. Rather than adjusting (leaning) the entire fuel misture (jetting), why not try making small adjustments to the oil/fuel mixture?

OK, I can feel all of you getting out your slingshots preparing to thump the moron, but at least wait until I'm done.

Most of the manufacturer recommended oil mixture ratios are based on some specific grade of 2-stroke oil mixed into some specific gasoline product. Gasoline alone varies tremendously in quality and composition, particularly based on the regionally mandated oxygenates and additives, not to mention the varying percentages of ethanol (alcohol) we don't even know about. A prime example is the "People's Republik of Kully-fornia". Here, our fuel is so heavily laden with oxygenates, pollution enhancing additives (enhancing as in, they actually increase net pollution) and detergents that our fuel economy is significantly affected (don't believe me, just get skipro started on MTBE and all of the contaminated water wells in the Tahoe area). When I leave the republik and drive into a foreign land, my fuel milage goes up measurably, usually by at least 10%. The bottom line is that a gallon of gasoline in Kully-fornia actually has less "fuel" than a comparable gallon of fuel in the sane world. Another way to look at this is that a given quantity of fuel containing a high percentage of additives has less available heat or energy than a like quantity of less additive laden fuel.

The quality and specific properties of various oils vary tremendously as well. Why else is there so much opinion Synthetics vs Castor Bean Oil vs Dino oil vs semi-synthetic vs whatever.

OK, ready to strangle me yet? My point is, the actual ratio of oil to fuel needed to lubricate and protect a 2-stroke engine is very dependant on several factors, one of them being the quality of the specific fuel used, and another being the properties of the specific oil use as a lubricant. If you can accept this point, then it makes sense to consider adjusting the oil/fuel ratio based on the quality/specific gravity/purity of the fuel you are using.

If you are satisfied with the performance of the motor with a specific fuel/air mixture setting (jetting) but still have an apparent surplus of oil at the end of the combustion cycle (spooge dribbling out of the muffler), it makes sense to start adjusting the amount of oil in the fuel mix to optimize the oil/fuel mixture. I'm not talking about gross changes in the mix, but small changes titrated to effect (remember that chemistry class a hunnerd years ago?). Who says that oil ratios must be exactly 32:1, 40:1, 50:1 etc. Why not try 38:1 if 40:1 leaves dribbles on your tail?

OK, if you have read this far you are either way bored, intrigued, or waiting to see how big a wingnut the author is, so I'll further complicate the matter:

How do you know what the quality of the fuel is from can to can? Because you always buy your fuel from the exact same pump at the exact same Unocal station does that mean the fuel quality will be consistent? I'm not so sure, again especially here is silly-land. All of our fuel regardless of brand and grade is pumped through a couple of high pressure pipelines to a central distribution facility in San Diego. Now I'm sure the highly paid "technicians" at the tank farm meticulously segregate each brand and make of fuel, carefully purging the hoses and nozzles between load, but there may be some slight chance of inadvertent mixing of the products when no one is looking. I suspect that the only way to be certain is to buy expensive canned racing fuel of the same brand and grade all the time. I'm not willing to do that, especially with so many riders chewing at my wallet.

I think I am going to settle on one specific brand and grade of gasoline, and one specific oil, then try adjusting the oil/fuel mixture in small increments until I get an acceptably low spooge production, not no spooge, just acceptably low secretions. As long as some excess oil is passing through the entire digestive tract or the motor, I'll be somewhat confident that the internals are getting enough lubrication to keep from seizing. When I leave the republik and go to the land of unsullied fuel, I'll bump up the oil ration slightly until I'm certain the mixture is not too lean (too clean at the pipe) for the engine.

OK, I'm behind the tower where you can't even see me so let the sniping begin............

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Post by Indawoods »

>|<>QBB<
canyncarvr wrote:Jetting 101 says 'airscrew', don't it?

Especially with a modified carb.

The amount of 'power' you have sticking to the S/A tip over a weekend...or even a moderate ride is zip.point.

You're on DEK-4 now? That's where it should be anyway..screw spoo!!
The airscrew didn't have any effect on the hesitation... the clip did. I then adjusted the airscrew after adjusting the needle to get the best results... fiddled with the airscrew alot throughout the day depending on temps.

I'm running a CEK with a 40 pilot and a 150 main. I may try the 42 pilot and drop the needle. That may clean it up ya think?

4rider-
I was running Amsoil Interceptor 40:1 and BP Premium 93 octane (no ethenol) Amsoil says 50:1 is OK and that may clean it up, don't know. I still have alot more experimenting to do to find the best combination...just alot of varibles to consider including temps. My brain hurts now.... :neutral:
Last edited by Indawoods on 08:12 pm Sep 07 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 4Rider »

Just tryin' to stir the pot a little! :twisted:

Just gotta be some other opinions out there, we'll see if anyone rises to the bait!
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Post by jafo »

I ran the recomended 32:1 ratio with a run of the mill 2 stroke synthetic with the rich jetting and got so much spooge, it plugged my muffler packing. After it did that, it started running down the entire length of the muffler and pipe and dripped onto the swing arm and pooled there. Basically created a nasty mess and not only on the bike but also basicaly covered the back of my $40 riding jersey. Don't get me wrong, I like getting dirty and I'm not afraid of big mud holes, but mud washes out usualy, but spooge does not wash out. So I started this odyssey of jet swaping and ratio experimenting. This is all covered in my topic of the plug chop of the process I've went through ans where I'm at now. Without riding a properly jetted bike with optimum fuel ratio gas mix, it's hard to say where one's bike is in performance. So the only way I can guage this is by running others while I'm out riding. I stay up with amy buddies '98 YZ 250 that was a pratice bike for a semi pro rider at one time. It's a pretty good running bike. I can now stay up with him where before I could'nt. So I see this as progress in performance with my bike after the changes I've made. Now your asking whats this got to do with this topic? I'm going through the same things as Indi, but I have eliminated most of the spooge. Where and when did it happen? Some where after I made one of two jet changes leaning the bike and also changing to Bel-Rays synthetic 2-stroke racing oil mixed at 40:1 with 91 octane gas. But one thing also plays off another, I have yet to try to change my clip position on the needle, I need to swap my pilot jet because after the last jet change, it drove the idle up to high for me. Now I'm wondering if changing the needle clip position may help with this. If your pulling the needle up higher at adle then your richening the idle circut right? Would that not be the same as changing the pilot jet? If so then your idle screw would wind up having a different adjustment level than others with bigger pilot jetting. Right? In other words instead of 1 an 1/2 turns out, it would be maybe just one turn or 1/2 turn out because you richened the idle circut by moving the needle up. Right?

Ok, I nead and Advil................ Ok I'm back. All in all, I've bought into the oil to fuel ratio thing 4rider is talking about because I've tried it and it worked for me...but for every action theres a reaction. Having less oil in your gas mix would probably change the engine performance and there might be more tuning needed.

I think Ski put it best on my topic, theres nothing wrong with tuning by the seat of your pants or in other words by feel. This is more of the tuning I prefer. You can tell your going the right direction when you scare the hell out of yourself just burrying the throttle. But the fuel to oil mixture is worth looking into I think and from my point of view so far, I'm not tuning by spooge I'm just wanting to eliminate as much spooge as possible and tuning is one of the only ways to do it.

Jon.
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Post by IdahoCharley »

You can run a rich ratio of oil to fuel and not have spooge as long as your riding with a decent load on the engine and your jetting is close. However, I would NOT base any change in oil ratio on what was coming out the silencer.

Spooge is related to jetting, fuel/oil quality and how the bike is riden. If you jet the bike very crisp across the board you will still have some spooge after riding in the mountains where you change elevation all day long. Sure you could change jets every time you change significant elevation, shut down the engine when decending long grades, shut off the fuel valve when it is really steep down hill but then the fun factor drops for your friends who just want to ride. (You may end up with a clean bike, no friends and be accused of being a poser!! LOL)

The KDX does need to be run hard to climb mountain trails but even then your not normally running it in the top % range for long periods of time. (Don't believe me - ride it in the sand dunes and then you will see what its like to be riding it at 85-100% of its engine output) When the combustion temperature is high, the pipe is hot and the engine is working the oil in the premix is burning well. But then you have to decend the trails; the engine is not working the pipe cools the combustion temperature drops and oil passes through the combustion chamber into the pipe and eventually out the "hole".

If your jetting is close, and you feel you have excessive spooge, I would be looking at trying some different premix oils. I've used Amsoil 100:1, Series 2000, Dominator, and Interceptor oils for so long a period of time that I really can't comment on other brands. However - in the Amsoil oils I noticed that the 100:1 (run at 40:1) and Interceptor oil. do not spooge as much as the Series 2000 or its replacement the Dominator run at the same 40:1 ratio. This is not intended as a endorsement for Amsoil only as personnel experience on their particular line of 2-Cycle oils. Certain oils have lower points of combustion and some are clean burning. My thought is don't jepordize your engine by running a very lean oil ratio in an attempt to rid your bike of a little spooge.

Also when I jet and dial-in a carb I pay attention to the temperature of the pipe and silencer as part of my dial-in routine. After a while you can tell if your pilot jet is too lean or too rich by how fast the bike warms up. Also we always talk about doing plug chops and examining the grounding strap, the electrode and focus our primary attention on the fuel ring at the base of the insulator. I also look at these items but I also pay attention to the spark plug physical relative temperature.

Listening for the correct "sound" from your exhaust pipe at all throttle settings: Paying attention to the temperature of your exhaust pipe and silencer: feeling the performance of your bike at the various throttle settings is all part of jetting by the seat of your pants IMO. Spooge is an indicator (if its excessive) that something is out of whack. Most likely jetting or float level but then again - did you just decend 2 miles down a moutain pass?
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Post by quailchaser »

I ride here from an altitude of ~1400ft to ~4500ft on one ride. With starting temps in the 80's to finishing temps in the 100's. There are sections that are High speed sand wash or open trail and other sections of low speed tight twisties. Other sections of high rpm, clutch slipping, steep, rutted rocky hill climbs with butt clinching, arm pumping, rear tire sliding down hills. I can get the bike to run strong throughout the terrain, but the spoo... remains.

If we were able to jet for specific MX track, I think it would be easier to jet for response and spoo.. But, like Idaho Charley described, most of us ride trails that vary in altitude and throttle control. I haven't seen a single 2T on any ride I've been on that didn't have a little spoo.... :shock:

I too have given up on the spoo... :sad:

P.S. In case you didn't notice, I like the term spoo... :lol: Good call Inda! :supz:
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Post by 89kdx200rdr »

wd40 takes spoo right off :lol:
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Post by KDXer »

I'm thinkin Memorial Day 06 we should be having a few evenin' seminars for us dummies (read: ME) that STILL can't get there head around needles and other trivial matters that only the masters can solve. I vote Brad as the needle teacher. We'll call it CanyonCarver's KDX Communal Campfire Question Session. :supz: :lol:

I too like "spoo".... :lol:
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Post by 89kdx200rdr »

spooge isnt that bad. the amount inda has in that pic looks about right for safe jetting. thats about what my spooge looks like and i'm happy with it. if you want less spooge and like changing rings and pistons and maybe cylinders more often for not that much of an improvement in power jet for less spooge. riding woods around here i dont think i have ever had no spooge. varying conditions of the the trail and day dont allow it. jet it to a safe point ride it enjoy and wipe that little bit of spooge off.
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Post by Green Hornet »

My makes the spooge until it is warmed up fully. It smokes, spits then after about 20 minutes it will clear up, especially after riding wot. Then clean as a kitten. Inda-I run a 42 Pilot, 150 Main & 1173(2nd from top) on a 35mm (Non-Mod Carb) on my 220. I'm waiting for a 40 pilot, because I believe that is where it is running a bit rich.
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Post by fuzzy »

I'm running a CEK with a 40 pilot and a 150 main. I may try the 42 pilot and drop the needle. That may clean it up ya think?
I'd say it's worth a shot before giving up on jetting entirely. Was that pic taken after a day, or after the weekend? If after a day, I'd say you're lookin at a lot more spoo soon. Again, as you and CC mentioned....Who cares. You can prolly still run it all year on one plug. I would just be tweaking to get the best bottom out of it as possible....You'll get it. I mean you spent all that money on a fancy carb/cage and all... :mrgreen:
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Post by m0rie »

If the spoo makes you happy then i'm happy. :partyman: Switching to the RB carb and a DEK-4 with a reasonable jet set (152 main, 40 pilot, 7.0 slide, Golden Spectro 50:1) is the first time i've not had a large quantity of drooling spoo on the back of sparky/swingarm. I've got a ring around the exhaust when i'm finished riding. Just enough to capture some dust. Wipes right up with a paper towel. I'll take that anyday over the drooling mess that I had before.

I think the amount of spoo has a lot to do with the oil that you run and how optimal the jetting your running really is.

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Post by jafo »

Let me throw this into the equasion. How about the heat range of plugs? Would that contribute to having to much spooge or not much spooge?

Oh by the way, I'm not critisizing you Indi, you know more about tuning your bike more than I do and if your happy with the performance and the spooge does'nt bother you then thats great. You have to be the one comfortable with your ride and thats all that matters. I'm just throwing out ideas thats all.

Jon.
Last edited by jafo on 06:47 pm Sep 08 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Indawoods »

Does anyone run anything but an 8 range plug? :neutral:
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Post by m0rie »

>|<>QBB<
jafo wrote:Let me throw this into the equasion. How about the heat range of plugs? Would that contribute to having to much spooge or not much spooge?

Jon.
I think that it would Jon. Are you running a 8?
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