Clutch wont disengage.

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kiwikdx99
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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by kiwikdx99 »

Hi KDX gurus,

Hopefully someone can help me out and Im not asking the same question that has been asked before,

I have a 1990 KDX 200 and have just finished doing some work on it. After replacing the clutch cable perch and springs, as well as a top and bottom end engine rebuild I took it out for a test ride today and found the following issue:

When the engine is running in neutral with clutch pulled, I select first and the bike grips and stalls with the clutch still pulled. It appears the clutch is not dissengaging properly. I am running fresh ATF type F in the trans and the clutch lever is adjusted as discribed in the manual. Clutch lever feels about right but it doesnt seen to disengage properly.

When I got the bike it wasnt going so not sure if this is normal or not. Also when inspecting the clutch friction plates and clutch plates I noted that one of the clutch plates is dished, this plate was on the top of the stack facing towards the basket. I have looked on cheap cycle parts at the parts diagram, and it looks like there is one clutch plate with a different part number, is this the dished plate and if so which way and in what position should it be installed?

Also while I was looking at the parts diagram I noted there is a washer under the clutch pusher, My bike doesn't have this washer fitted and I remember reading that this washer was not always needed, is this the case?


Any assistance greatly received i just want to ride the thing after rebuilding it for months!
suzuki 166
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by suzuki 166 »

the washer will push the clutch in more look in the manual section 5-8 and see the angle of the lever where it comes out the clutch cover also have you got the 2 thin rings anti judder rings installed on top of the clutch plates.
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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by Dekon »

I just went through the same thing on my '89. My bike also does not have the washer. Did you soak the plates in oil before you put them in? I had to replace my water pump seal and when I re assembled the bike just put the clutch back in as I figured it had oil on it already. Apparently it was not enough. I took the clutch apart and put oil on the plates with my finger and all was fine after that.
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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by canyncarvr »

kiwikdx99 wrote:Hi KDX gurus,

Hopefully someone can help me out and Im not asking the same question that has been asked before,

I have a 1990 KDX 200 and have just finished doing some work on it. After replacing the clutch cable perch and springs, as well as a top and bottom end engine rebuild I took it out for a test ride today and found the following issue:
OEM perch? While an aftermarket perch and an OEM lever may work OK together, they also might not.
kiwikdx99 wrote: When the engine is running in neutral with clutch pulled, I select first and the bike grips and stalls with the clutch still pulled. It appears the clutch is not dissengaging properly. I am running fresh ATF type F in the trans and the clutch lever is adjusted as discribed in the manual. Clutch lever feels about right but it doesnt seen to disengage properly.
Check what Suzy said about the lever..if you don't understand what was said...ask.
kiwikdx99 wrote:
When I got the bike it wasnt going so not sure if this is normal or not. Also when inspecting the clutch friction plates and clutch plates I noted that one of the clutch plates is dished, this plate was on the top of the stack facing towards the basket. I have looked on cheap cycle parts at the parts diagram, and it looks like there is one clutch plate with a different part number, is this the dished plate and if so which way and in what position should it be installed?
Kiwi? Meaning your in Australia? Be SURE you are looking at the correct parts diagram. What everyone in the US thinks is true 'round the world is NOT. Overseas (to US) bikes ARE NOT THE SAME.

The '90 KDX fiche I looked at DOES have different plate numbers, as you say.

The clutch plate part numbers are all the same for the later US imported KDX btw. I do not KNOW all the places those differences are, I DO know there have been threads chasing problems for pages on this site all to find out the models being discussed are NOT the same!
kiwikdx99 wrote: Also while I was looking at the parts diagram I noted there is a washer under the clutch pusher, My bike doesn't have this washer fitted and I remember reading that this washer was not always needed, is this the case?

As noted..and you got that, right? That washer is a shim..sometimes needed, sometimes not. WHETHER it is needed or not depends on how the lever Suzy mentioned moves. There is a specific description OF that movement.
kiwikdx99 wrote: Any assistance greatly received i just want to ride the thing after rebuilding it for months!
Ditto on the friction plate oil soak. You gotta do it. You CAN damage brand new plates by NOT doing it.

As to the how and where the single plate fits..that's noted in the parts diagram...isn't it? What specific question do you have about it? I'm missing that part.

In NO case does any KDX I've seen or heard of freewheel well with the transmission in gear and the clutch lever pulled. Don't know if that applies to a '90 KDX or not.
Last edited by canyncarvr on 05:27 pm Nov 17 2012, edited 2 times in total.

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kiwikdx99
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by kiwikdx99 »

suzuki 166 wrote:the washer will push the clutch in more look in the manual section 5-8 and see the angle of the lever where it comes out the clutch cover also have you got the 2 thin rings anti judder rings installed on top of the clutch plates.

I have both a hard copy Kawasaki manual and the online Cyclepedia manual (linked from this site) and both make no mention of measuring the lever position to work out if the shim is needed. Could you please let me know what manual you are refering to?

yes the two anti judder rings are installed correctlly.
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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by kiwikdx99 »

Dekon wrote:I just went through the same thing on my '89. My bike also does not have the washer. Did you soak the plates in oil before you put them in? I had to replace my water pump seal and when I re assembled the bike just put the clutch back in as I figured it had oil on it already. Apparently it was not enough. I took the clutch apart and put oil on the plates with my finger and all was fine after that.

thanks for the tip, I did soak the plates before I installed them, but I pulled the clutch out and did it again this morning just to be sure, still no difference.
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by canyncarvr »

kiwikdx99 wrote:
suzuki 166 wrote:the washer will push the clutch in more look in the manual section 5-8 and see the angle of the lever where it comes out the clutch cover also have you got the 2 thin rings anti judder rings installed on top of the clutch plates.

I have both a hard copy Kawasaki manual and the online Cyclepedia manual (linked from this site) and both make no mention of measuring the lever position to work out if the shim is needed. Could you please let me know what manual you are refering to?

yes the two anti judder rings are installed correctlly.
Section 5 page 6 in the Kawi manual. 'Clutch Release Lever Angle Inspection, Adjustment'

Is it the same in your manual?

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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by kiwikdx99 »

OEM perch? While an aftermarket perch and an OEM lever may work OK together, they also might not.

Sorry my post wasnt very clear, I have replaced the OEM lever and perch with aftermarket lever and perch, definately not a lever or cable issue.




Kiwi? Meaning your in Australia? Be SURE you are looking at the correct parts diagram. What everyone in the US thinks is true 'round the world is NOT. Overseas (to US) bikes ARE NOT THE SAME.

No Kiwi meaning im in New Zealand, a little further than Australia. Thanks for the parts advice, Kawasaki New Zealand use the same US parts diagrams so pretty happy im on the right page with that. Still pretty dubious about the dished plate and I feel that might be the cause of the clutch issue.

The '90 KDX fiche I looked at DOES have different plate numbers, as you say.
kiwikdx99 wrote: Also while I was looking at the parts diagram I noted there is a washer under the clutch pusher, My bike doesn't have this washer fitted and I remember reading that this washer was not always needed, is this the case?

As noted..and you got that, right? That washer is a shim..sometimes needed, sometimes not. WHETHER it is needed or not depends on how the lever Suzy mentioned moves. There is a specific description OF that movement.

Do you have the reference for that movement? I have checked the two manuals that I have access to and cant find anything other than fit the shim ( if needed).





In NO case does any KDX I've seen or heard of freewheel well with the transmission in gear and the clutch lever pulled. Don't know if that applies to a '90 KDX or not.[/quote]

Not worried about it not freewheeling in gear when not running, I wasnt expecting it to do that.


Thanks everyone for all the help so far
kiwikdx99
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by kiwikdx99 »

canyncarvr wrote:
kiwikdx99 wrote:
suzuki 166 wrote:the washer will push the clutch in more look in the manual section 5-8 and see the angle of the lever where it comes out the clutch cover also have you got the 2 thin rings anti judder rings installed on top of the clutch plates.

I have both a hard copy Kawasaki manual and the online Cyclepedia manual (linked from this site) and both make no mention of measuring the lever position to work out if the shim is needed. Could you please let me know what manual you are refering to?

yes the two anti judder rings are installed correctlly.
Section 5 page 6 in the Kawi manual. 'Clutch Release Lever Angle Inspection, Adjustment'

Is it the same in your manual?
No I don't have that at all, I just have install inspection and removal proceedures for the clutch in that section
kiwikdx99
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by kiwikdx99 »

Any chance someone could flick me a copy of the Clutch Release Lever Angle Inspection, Adjustment section of the book?
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by canyncarvr »

kiwikdx99 wrote:Any chance someone could flick me a copy of the Clutch Release Lever Angle Inspection, Adjustment section of the book?

100

Click on the pic to show it in its native resolution (bigger).


It's just geometry: You will get the most amount of lever movement (and clutch actuation) if the lever moves THROUGH a 90º position.

This assumes the lever itself is does not have the flat goobered at the bottom of it that actually moves the pushrod..that the shaft support bearings are in good shape..that the cover hole at the top of the cover (where the seal fits) is not worn out...that the perch is correct...that the lever does NOT have an elongated mounting hole...etc.


To your original post: This issue has been discussed a good bit. It can get complicated because so many issues and/or worn out pieces have a direct effect on the outcome.

**edit**
Hey! I got my finners in a pretty ideal spot, if the point was to obscure meaningful detail, 'eh?

I didn't intend for the shim add/removal part to be included. That part should be self-explanatory.

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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by kiwikdx99 »

Thanks heaps for the picture, I will go and have a look at it see what it looks like. Still leaning towards it being the dished clutch plate. Think I will put a new clutch kit in it and see how that goes if its not the lever angle.
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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by rbates9 »

Are you saying that the "dished" clutch plate is not flat? If so that is most likely your issue. I belive that all of the plates should be flat. If they were not it would cause drag when you release the clutch. (Like you have)
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by kiwikdx99 »

Yeah dished as in not flat. its got a good 10 thou dish in it. Wasnt sure if there was supposed to be a different plate or not due to the different part number plate in the parts list. All the plates are identical in dimension etc except the dished one so pretty sure thats the issue. Did the lever angle measurement and its happily between 80 and 90.

Thanks for all the help, will order a clutch kit on Monday and see how that goes
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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by rbates9 »

I have seen on some applications they will use a different friction plate at one end of the stack to help smooth engagement. I'm not saying that this is the case for a KDX but it would make sense.

If one is warped then it probably got hot at some point so if cash isn't an issue then all new would be the way to go. Or you could check the rest for being flat and the right thickness and just get what you need.
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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by canyncarvr »

Take a look at a parts fiche. The outside plate is drawn with a curve.

What a drawing looks like doesn't count for much...but if there isn't any difference between the plates...
.
.
.
..why are they different?
:hmm:

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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by rbates9 »

http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com ... 200-CLUTCH

In this diagram the odd plate has a different friction material pattern and is not curved. The steel could be a different thickness. But I don't see how one could tell from a picture that was drawn on a napkin in crayon if it is flat or curved. :wink:

If the plate was curved it would drag and wear out the edge of the friction plate very quickly.
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Clutch wont disengage.

Post by dfeckel »

I've had several E clutches in my hands in the past, and I'm pretty sure the final, different friction plate is supposed to be flat.

Also, this final friction plate is intended to stack separately from the rest of the frictions. The tabs on this friction plate drop into the notches ON TOP of the clutch basket fingers, not between the fingers with all the rest of the plates. I'm not sure it makes much difference in the broad scheme of things. I've put the clutch together both ways and it seems to work in both configurations.
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by suzuki 166 »

iv got my clutch apart the odd plate is flat it has a lardger diamiter so the anti judder spring fits inside the plate.then this plate slots in the top of the basket in the small notches separate from the rest i hope this helps.
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Re: Clutch wont disengage.

Post by canyncarvr »

suzuki 166 wrote:iv got my clutch apart the odd plate is flat it has a lardger diamiter so the anti judder spring fits inside the plate.then this plate slots in the top of the basket in the small notches separate from the rest i hope this helps.

Yep.

The newer KDX clutches are all the same friction plate, but they do fit similarly..the top plate offset from the others.

You (OP) didn't say if this clutch worked fine before you took the bike apart. If it did..then fussing about plates being warped is likely a waste of time.

Answers to questions already asked are necessary.

DID it (the clutch) work acceptably before it was taken apart? I understand the bike was not running, but maybe you did push the bike around, in gear, lever pulled, and it free-wheeled OK?

IF it did, then your best chance of resolving the problem is likely to be addressing something that was (or was not) done.

For example:

Did you correctly place the TWO washers at the bottom of the basket/clutch pack assembly?

IS the clutch cable correctly routed?

Is the perch an OEM perch fit to an OEM lever?

Is the handlebar lever pivot sloppy/worn?

And I have not seen an answer to the 90º lever question, either.

ANY single one of the above could be THE cause of the whole problem.


It is also possible that NOTHING is wrong at all. A newly assembled (correctly) clutch, especially with new parts, may very well show signs of 'sticking' when it is first used. I don't read that the bike has been run enough to even warm it up.

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