Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

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valleyguy
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by valleyguy »

My wife works for a honda bike dealership and they sell alot of motocross stuff as well as other stuff. My new to me bike had a fresh rebuild so I ran a few tanks of basic mix though it before switching over to this stuff, now I haven't used it yet but was gonna today, but after reading the bottle I noticed they recomend a 1.5% ratio for trail and a 2-2.5% ratio for motocross and enduro. No big deal I thought it has a little mix bottle on the top of the bottle so you just fill up that little section and pour it in. Now I noticed that it is recomending less oil than I'm use to useing for example I mix 32:1 so for 16 liters of fuel I mix 500ml of oil. I decided to mix this stuff at 2% because I have a lot of long wide open runs with some mud here and there and a little more oil can't hurt but with 16 liters of fuel it comes out at about 320 ml ? Now there website as well as the bottle says it's made so you use less oil, I'm a little worried about the less oil thing it just doesn't seem right to do it but all the motocross guys use this here thats why my wife's dealer carries it and they mix it like it says to so I dunno. Anyone running it?
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Julien D
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by Julien D »

I prefer to mix what the bike manufacturer recommends over what the label on a bottle of oil says.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

this french manufactured oil (ipon) is developed useing quality synthetic blends , they were a large sponsor the world enduro championships in europe a few years back supplying oils for both the 2 & 4 stroke bikes, they claim the oil to be clean burning & provide excellent lubrication under tough conditions ( they even make the oil smell like strawberries! ), the oil also works well in snowmobils & skeedoos...ipon like amsoil claim you can run lesser oil ratios in their 2 strokes because of the excellent mix of modern friction reducing & lubricating synthetics added to the oil...in truth there are many excellent quality oils on the market these days for both 2 & 4 strokes, ..look at the new range of ktm 2 strokes they recommend running a mix of 60.1 !....i run 40.1 rock oil fully synthetic in my 220 jetted to suit (i dont race my bike just play on the trails) , i did a top end rebuild last year & the power valves were reasonably clean with hardly any carbon build up on the head or piston crown.
valleyguy
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by valleyguy »

So should I go with what ipone recomends or stick with my 500ml for 16 liters?
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

what ratio are you running at the moment 32.1 / 40.1 ?? stick with your current mix & see how the bike runs, if it smokes alot then just go down to what ipon recommends...your jetting may be out slightly due to the less oil/more fuel ratio that ipon recommends.
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by valleyguy »

I'm running 32:1. But it's just a generic non synthetic cheapo oil.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

get shot of the cheapo oil asap & then run the ipone oil at 32.1 (fit a fresh plug & clean air filter) ..see how the bike runs with that ratio since you ride in wide open spaces...if the bike smokes too much on full throttle then you may have to consider jetting /oil ratio changes to suit...let us know how you get on.
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by valleyguy »

I tried to burn out all the fuel and mix that was in it so I could start fresh with the ipone but apperently the tank is alot bigger than I thought, I rode around for hours which was mind numbing because I didn't want to go to far from home so I had less distance to push it lol. So would I be alright topping the fuel off with the ipone or should I just drain off the fuel thats in it? seems like a waste but ridding around in the same area is boring.
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by Julien D »

Drain the tank and put it in your car/truck/lawnmower/weedeater or whatever.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by zomby woof »

I prefer to mix according to the riding conditions. A mid performance bike like a KDX, being ridden recreationally won't need high quality oil mixed at 32-1. If you're racing it, and really making it work, then maybe. The bike manufacturers err very much on the side of caution, and assume the worst. I mix my 125 motocross bike at 32-1, but not the KDX.

I don't have experience with Ipone, but it has a great reputation.
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by scheckaet »

Julien D wrote:Drain the tank and put it in your car/truck/lawnmower/weedeater or whatever.
+1
if you don't be ready to foul plugs...and push bike a lot...
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Post by SS109 »

zomby woof wrote:I prefer to mix according to the riding conditions. A mid performance bike like a KDX, being ridden recreationally won't need high quality oil mixed at 32-1. If you're racing it, and really making it work, then maybe. The bike manufacturers err very much on the side of caution, and assume the worst. I mix my 125 motocross bike at 32-1, but not the KDX.
Remember, oil ratios are not just about cylinder/piston/ring protection. It is also about power production. It has been proven that a bike will keep making more power the stronger the oil ratio is up to 18:1. The oil is what helps seal the rings. More oil = better ring seal = more power. I run the factory recommended 32:1 as I want all the power I can get and I want my engine to last another 10 years before she needs a top end.

Also, the KDX is only a mild performance bike if you ride it mild and leave it stock. For it's day, the KDX was the best 200cc bike available for off road riding, period. Yes, it isn't as powerful as a 250 but it is down 50cc so what do you expect? Anyways, once you add a pipe, dial in the jetting, and start doing other mods, the KDX isn't just a mild little trail bike anymore! Just ask my riding buddies! :boogie:
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by valleyguy »

Souns good, I guess I'll just drain it and mix it with my weed eater fuel. I don't have anything major done to it just a pipe but I do ride it pretty hard at times so I'll just stick with what I was mixing before. Thanks everyone for the all the input. I do have one more question, I'm use to a 4 stroke and lugging it on the trail a bit can I do the same with this bike? Buddy of mine told that all 2 strokes like to be reved up all the time and that not getting on and off the throttle would ruin the engine.( I think he's jeleious that my kdx beat his 400 ex on the trail lol) I know this can be true for say a race bike (CR's YZ's ect) I do blip the throttle from time to time on the trail but when it gets rough with sticks, roots and rocks I don't really wanna be cracking the throttle and reving it up all the time.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by SS109 »

Yes, the KDX can lug along pretty good and it won't hurt the engine one bit. BTW, it won't even hurt an MX bike like a YZ or CR. They might load up a bit, and possibly even foul a spark plug, but it won't hurt them in any way.
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valleyguy
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by valleyguy »

ah..sweet, guess I'll just ride it and enjoy it.
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Post by zomby woof »

I said mid performance, not mild performance. I think I know that oil test you're talking about. Wasn't that 40 years ago? Things change. Materials and oils are much better these days, and some manufacturers (as has been posted) recommend 60 and even 80-1.

Mix to the application. This is the best guide, IMO

http://www.maximausa.com/tech-tips/oil-migration.php

The recommendation is at the bottom.
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Post by SS109 »

That test wasn't that long ago (last 10-15 years) and it wasn't about protection but about how the oil ratio affects power. Even if the oils have improved considerably, as far as protection goes anyways, they haven't in their sealing qualities. They still can't seal the rings as well at those weak (50+:1) ratios. Now, notice Maxima's recommendations. Anywhere from 40:1 up to 20:1 on our size of bike if you actually ride it. I guess if you literally put around with your kids, never go up steep hills, never ride in a sand wash, and never get on the pipe, then 50 or 60:1 might do you just fine.

So, you do whatever you like with your bike. I'll pass and keep running 32:1 with my Maxima 927 and enjoy the fact my engine will get another 10+ years out of the top end.
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Post by zomby woof »

Please post that test. I would like to see it.

I would consider the huge majority of riders, including those here as being in the recreational category.
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Post by Julien D »

zomby woof wrote:Please post that test. I would like to see it.

I would consider the huge majority of riders, including those here as being in the recreational category.
Here's a pretty good write up on it. There are plenty more if you look around.
Pre-mix 101

OK, looks like it's time for a little pre-mix 101. I don't usually get into ratio discussions, because mix ratios are like religions to most people, and they tend to be closed-minded on the subject, but I'll put in my $.02 here anyway.

There is a prevailing myth that less oil is better, and that the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine. Both are wrong.

*less oil is better* People think that if they have a plug fouling problem or a lot of spooge, they need to run less oil. Wrong! Both problems are caused by rich jetting, and have nothing to do with the mix ratio.

*the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine* The engine is lubricated by the residual oil that builds up in the crankcase. All the oil in the fuel does is replenish this oil.

The best way to determine if you are running enough oil is to check the level of the residual oil in the crankcase. If the ratio you run leaves enough residual oil in the crankcase to cover about 1/8" of the bottom of the crank wheels, then you are fine. If you don't have that much residual oil in your crankcase when you pull the top-end off, you aren't running enough oil for your riding style and conditions.

With that said, to have that amount of residual oil in the crankcase at 50:1 (a ratio made popular by magazines and oil bottles), you can't be riding very hard, or your bike is jetted richer than necessary simply to deliver enough oil. I arrived at 26:1 for my bike with my riding style because that is the amount that gives me the proper amount of residual build-up. Small-bore engines require greater oil concentrations than larger engines to achieve the proper amount of residual build-up, because they rev higher and have higher intake velocities. Along the same lines, someone that pushes the engine harder, and keeps the revs higher, also needs to use higher oil concentrations to achieve the proper residual build-up.

To understand why the residual oil is so important, you have to understand what happens to the oil in your fuel when it goes into the engine. While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around as a mist by the spinning crankshaft, and the droplets are distributed by the air currents moving through the engine. Ever wonder why there are two small holes in the transfer port area of the crankcase, right over the main bearings? These are to allow some of the oil droplets being flung around inside the engine to drip down into the main bearing area.

Some of the oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation, unless you're just putt-putting around on trails without putting the engine under much load.

With the high oil concentrations that I use, I tend to get far more life from my cranks and rings than most of my friends that run leaner oil ratios. The high oil content also produces better ring sealing, so more of the combustion pressure is retained.

One small point. No one ever broke an engine by using too much oil.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pre-mix ratios and power production

I have run Dyno tests on this subject. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (a modifed '86 YZ 250, mine) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel, and the burn-characteristics of the fuel with that much oil tended to be poor. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by SS109 »

zomby woof wrote:Please post that test. I would like to see it.

I would consider the huge majority of riders, including those here as being in the recreational category.
I thought you were already familiar with it? Anyways, Juliend took care of the first part so I'll go on to the second.

It all depends on what you classify as a "recreational" rider. I could be considered a recreational rider as I have never participated in an organized race of any sort on my bike and, yes, probably most are just like me in that respect. I ride purely for my own fun factor. However, I don't ride my bike easy and I'm sure there are plenty of others here that do likewise. I'm always getting on the pipe, throwing my bike around, blasting through washes, powering up steep gnarly hills, riding as hard as I can (ie: race speed) yet I am a recreational rider. I don't believe, though, how I ride is what Maxima is talking about as a recreational rider. I'm sure it is a lot closer to what I described in my previous post.
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