Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

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zomby woof
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by zomby woof »

I doubt it.

Please post that test.
Apparently it's not the one from the mid 70's that everyone likes to quote.

So feel free to post it up.
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Julien D
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by Julien D »

Meh. Old subject, but here's another good read on it. And yes, it's geared toward vintage bikes, but you'll notice that they are using modern oils. Also notice, the H series KDX manual which was produced up until 2006, still advises a 32:1 ratio. They did not lower the recommended oil ratio with the advent of newer oils, and for good reason, IMO.

http://klemmvintage.com/oils.htm
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by SS109 »

No, I'm not talking about the testing done in 1978. The first one Juliend posted is from at least the mid 80's considering they tested on an '86 YZ250. There was a newer one where they tested on a newer MX bike in one of the mags but I can't find it online. Regardless, even the two older articles both confirm the same basic results. Until an oil manufacturer has independent testing done to prove their oil works better in a direct comparison with other oils, varying up the ratios, and actually post the dyno results, I won't believe them. All these oil companies have enough money to prove it yet they don't. I wonder why that is? If I wasn't such a poor boy I would do the testing myself!

If anyone wants to chip in the cash, I'll put my newly finished bike (just under 12.5 hours!) up to the abuse of being flogged on the dyno to put this to bed. I'll supply Maxima 927 for the test. You guys supply it and I'll try it! Dyno time here seems to run $60 to $75 an hour. If everyone chips in maybe we can get two or three hours and have some truly modern data to argue over.

I'm thinking for ratios:
100:1
50:1
32:1
18:1

That seems like a decent spread to prove/disprove anything as far as ratios go.

Oils:
Maxima Castor 927 - part synthetic oil
Ipone S2 - full synthetic
?????

Gas would be Chevron 91.

Any takers?
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zomby woof
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by zomby woof »

Some guy using one oil (who knows what it was?) on an almost 30 year old bike?

Show me the test you're talking about and if it's legit, I'll believe it. otherwise, you know what to do :mrgreen:

KTM recommends 60-1 now, and Rotax recommends 50-1 on their modern 2 strokes. Wonder why? I guess they're wrong?
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by fuzzy »

12:1 will make power you can see on a dyno vs 50:1...I make this more extreme example as that's how much it really needs to be. It's not that much, but more oil does equate to better ring seal, and makes more power....Like 1-2 peak hp. It's not enough for a woods rider to mess with the issues that arise from running such a heavy mix. One size off on the main is probably more detrimental to the power. That being said, I ran 12:1 when karting. 100cc air cooled, no powervalve, 16K rpm. Ran pure castor there too which I would never run in the woods with a powervalved bike, or anything that i wasn't going to flush afterwards.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by rbates9 »

zomby woof wrote:KTM recommends 60-1 now, and Rotax recommends 50-1 on their modern 2 strokes. Wonder why? I guess they're wrong?
:hmm: I heard from a reliable source that "An engine is an engine". So they can all run 60-1?
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zomby woof
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by zomby woof »

I see that Fuzzy gets it.

BTW, Waiting to see that test.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by SS109 »

I'll already posted that I could not find it online. Did you even bother to read my response stating such?

Practically, yes, for most of us a few HP probably won't make that much of a difference. However, there is just no way to prove in actual riding conditions if you might need that extra HP or not. I can tell you this, I would rather have it and not need it than the other way around! Going by one of the tests, dropping from 18:1 to 100:1 resulted in an 18% power loss. On a 30hp engine that would be 5.4hp. I think that is definitely noticeable and I'm sure ring life would be as well!

BTW, fuzzy, please explain this...
...with the issues that arise from running such a heavy mix
I have never heard of any negative issues other than maybe lightening your wallet faster when it comes to fueling your bike.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by rbates9 »

SS109 wrote:BTW, fuzzy, please explain this...
...with the issues that arise from running such a heavy mix
I have never heard of any negative issues other than maybe lightening your wallet faster when it comes to fueling your bike.
Not looking to get in the middle of this one but I would assume a higher rate of plug fouling and spooge. Yes I know, jetting for the mix but there is only so much you can do and still be able to ride. To get peak 2 stroke jetting you would have to stop every 30' and rejet to keep the engine running at it's best. The best you can do is get the average close enough to make up for the rich and the lean times.
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Post by zomby woof »

Few, if any of us would ever run our bikes with 100-1 premix, so it's an academic point only, and coming from a test with how much credibility?

Although there is a local pro who has won gold at the ISDE (more than a few times, if I recall) who swears he's been running Opti at 100-1 for years. I value his opinion, as few people will ever achieve what he has, or ever be able to ride like him, but I still would never run my bike, even the KDX at 100-1

Nonetheless, the Kips valves is my concern on the KDX.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by rbates9 »

On a side note. It has been said that a mix of 50:1 is a richer mix then 32:1 because the 50:1 has more "Fuel" in it then the 32:1 mix has. (I still think that this thought is BS because the oil when mixed with the "Fuel" still burns so it is also "Fuel". But that it beside the point) So, would a mix with more "fuel" in it not make more power? Is the trade off of better sealing at the rings a better trade for the more fuel / air ratio? :hmm:

Go ahead, burn this theory to the ground.
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by Brian »

Most of the oil mixed with the fuel does not burn. The oil seperates from the atomized fuel and gets flung around, coating all the parts it touches. Very little of the oil actually gets where it's needed.

I don't have a link to any article but I read that in an ussue of Cycle World. It was an article by Kevin Cameron.
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zomby woof
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Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by zomby woof »

Herein lies the problem. It's hard to have this discussion when people don't understand how it works, even after you've provided the info.
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Post by rbates9 »

If the oil does not get burnt then where does it go? It would have to run out the pipe at a direct relation to how much is put in. And we have all seen a two stroke with a dry exhaust. Go look at your chainsaw.

What is it going to lube in the combustion chamber? The only reason to have oil in the premix is to lube the crank and connecting rod bearings, and the cylinder wall below the rings.
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by CoronasAndChips »

With a pictorial explanation of what he said up there.http://www.maximausa.com/tech-tips/oil-migration.php
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Re: Ipone S2 synthesis mix anyone?

Post by rbates9 »

CoronasAndChips wrote:With a pictorial explanation of what he said up there.http://www.maximausa.com/tech-tips/oil-migration.php
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