If you were to buy a 4-stroke....

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If you were to buy a 4-stroke....

Post by jack10525 »

that could come close to keeping up with a 2-stroke, what would you get? And yes price is ALWAYS a factor. By keeping up I mean something that will handle decent jumps, be light weight, have a snappy throttle. I've got a DRZ 250 and it's a dog and a pig (slow and fat) compaired to my KDX.
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Post by Indawoods »

You know what I'm buyin' :wink: so that's my choice... a KLX 300. Dependable, low maintenance and fairly cheap to purchase. They compare to a XR 400 when modded but lighter.
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Post by KDXGarage »

I have zero experience on any of the bikes I mention, so I wll just list them as "ones I would buy based on what I have read" not from actual experience. With price being a factor:

New or Used
Kawasaki KLX300
Honda XR250R
Honda XR400R

Used:
KTM/Husqvarna/Euro model
Suzuki DRZ400
Yamaha WR250F
Yamaha WR400/426/450F

Just guessing, but I would assume a used Honda CRF250X or used Honda CRF450X to be out of the price range, as they are very recent models.
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Post by jafo »

Jack, four strokes of any kind are not light. My buddy rides a CRF250X. He grabbed ahold of my bike one day and was just in aw of the wieght difference. But if I had to choose on a four stroke bike of any kind, it'd probably be a Gas Gas. It's not a screamer, but is a very agile bike in the woods and capable of competing with other brands and from what I understand they are alittle lighter than your normal 4 banger. This is if I rmember everything I read correctly. I've never rode one but I've seen one in action. Cool bike. I think the bigger Gas Gas is over 400cc and is fuel injected also. Good throttle response. Down side, not many dealers and they are probably not cheap to have repaired. It's not a bike that I myself would try to rebuild or repair on my own for sure.

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Post by 4Rider »

I have, and have had lots of 4-strokes. I have also had several two strokes. There is no easy answer to your question. The one thing I really notice with 4-strokes is that the bike's actually measured weight may not be a good indicator of how the bike feels. I know that doesn't sound right, but I am not at all alone with that impression.

In example, I have a KTM 400 EXC (It's primarily my wife's bike). The 400 EXC, the 450 EXC and the 525 EXC are all built on the same basic chassis, and have the same engine casting and components. They have the same suspension, bars, seats etc. They all weigh within a couple of pounds of each other. If you ride all three, the 400 feels lighter. The 450 feels the heaviest of the three, and the 525 feels lighter than the 450 and heavier than the 400. Go figure. I have heard lots of theories about why this is so. The best one I have heard is that the rotating mass of the 450 is the highest of the three bikes, which makes the 450 "feel" heavier when the engine is running, and particularly when it is either accelerating or decelerating.

I also have a XR400. I have modified the suspension, the handle bars, the airfilter and added a desert tank. By the spec sheets, the XR 400 weighs about the same as our 400 EXC when both have full-fuel (I have a large desert tank on the EXC). When ridden, the 400 EXC definitely feels way lighter. It jumps cleaner, wheelies easier, lands like a cat and When they fall over, the KTM also feels lighter to pick up. Of course, the KTM acceleration is much crisper which makes it feel lighter as well.

On rides, I have traded bikes with two of the guys who work for me. They both have tricked-out DRZ400s. Both have full suspension jobs, after-market exhaust systems, skid plates and the rest of the usual mods. Again, the KTM just feels way lighter and far out-performs the DRZs.

Here is my take on what 4-stroke to get to keep up with a 2-stroke. My opinion is based only on the bikes I have actually ridden, and on having had both 4-strokes and 2-strokes (last on was a YZ250) of my own:

For motocross/closed prepped track riding: CRF450R: Awesome suspension that is very tunable, rocket-ship powerplant, good components. Bad side: Heavy and potentially costly maintenance schedule including daily oil changes.

For open desert: KTM 450/525 EXC models with an MXC fuel tank or the Honda XR650R: KTMs: Very awesome suspension, very strong motors, excellent components. The 450 is quicker with a big "Hit" somewhat like a motocrosser. The 525 has a powerband and torque curve that starts just off idle and goes up through the RPMs to the rev-limiter. Both will wheelie at will and at virtually any speed. The motors are very dependable and seem to be trouble-free if properly maintained. If not maintained, stand by........Down-side: Initial cost, high maintenance, european ergonomics that you have to get used to, and a seat patterned after a 2x4. The initial cost is misleading as the KTMs come with a lot of high end components that most guys usually add to the japanese bikes (big pegs, taper-wall bars, wave rotors etc)
XR650R: What needs to be said? The king of baja and desert racing. Ultimate in dependability, legendary power delivery, absolutely unlimited mods and parts availability, very sevicable dualsport/road bike, waaay fast and waaay stable when going fast, available new for the cost of a used KTM, available used for half the cost of a KTM

For single-track, forest or GNCC type riding: KTM 400 EXC: Feels very light, very quick and nimble, very broad/predictable/tractable power band, very dependable (same components on the 400 as on the 525), ready to ride off the showroom floor. Downside: Initial cost, maintenance is frequent and mandatory or dependability goes away.

Of course, I don't even follow my own advice. I generally ride my KTM 640 Adventure R everywhere. Its very big, very heavy, not so nimble, but has gobs of torque and an endless power curve, and with the suspension heavily modified, it can go about anywhere (I get the strangest looks on single-track and in the washes at the desert, even had guys say 'hey, you can't ride that thing here") My kid took my XR400 about 30 minutes after I got it totally dialed in, and my wife took the 400 EXC as soon as I rolled it out of the trailer. Just when I thought I'd get myself a KDX to ride, my other kid gets big and will get the green machine.

The bottom line is that the 4-strokes are the hot ticket right now, and the EPA/AQMD nazi's intend to make that a permanent thing. It is expensive to make a lightweight yet powerful 4-stroke. As the power and performance go up, the cost goes up even more, and reliability goes down. I don't think any 4-stroke available yet can compete with the 2-strokes for power, reliability and low cost maintanance. The reasonable costing and dependable 4-strokes (XRs, KLRs TTRs etc) are no match for any of the 2-strokes.

One thing I can say with great authority and self-assuredness: All of the bikes I had, and all of the bikes I've ridden, were far more capable than I am a rider. I have had tons of fun with every bike I've ever had, starting with the Trail 90 I got in '68. I didn't know that it didn't have any suspension, that it was heavy and under powered. I just knew that I'd rather be riding it than doing most anything else!

Wow, look at all that BS I wrote. Guess I had too muchDr. Pepper and time on my hands tonight.

Mark
'02 KDX 220, '06 KTM 525 EXC Dualsport (CA Plated) '00 KTM 640 Adventure R (for sale), '04 KTM 400 EXC, '96 Honda XR400R Dualsport (CA Plated), Were not lost, we're right here......
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Post by Colorado Mike »

What Mark wrote makes a lot of sense. So, in balance, I say get a KX500. :lol: Okay, so it's not a 4 stroke. It's a blast though. You're in FL, you don't have those stupid laws do you? C'mon, you know you want one.. it weighs less than a KDX and has about double the power. What could be simpler? :rolleyes:
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Post by parker72001 »

probably the best trail 4 stroke for the money would be the yamaha tt-r 250, it's not a powerhouse but it's perfect with no mods on tight trails. My brother rides one and with my stock 220 we stay basically right next to each other all day. We both started riding about the same time so our skill level is about the same. Anyway, yeah a tt-r for the price is probably the best trail 4 stroke. Then again, if you have the money grab a wr 450, they are nice, my stepdad rides one and that thing zips, not geared to great for the trails, but a cheap $20 sprocket could change that, anyway, that's about all i know about four strokes. i don't mean to preach the blue but they do make good four stokes, not that i would buy one, please forgive me :prayer: :prayer: :prayer:
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Post by jack10525 »

jafo wrote:Jack, four strokes of any kind are not light. My buddy rides a CRF250X. He grabbed ahold of my bike one day and was just in aw of the wieght difference. But if I had to choose on a four stroke bike of any kind, it'd probably be a Gas Gas. It's not a screamer, but is a very agile bike in the woods and capable of competing with other brands and from what I understand they are alittle lighter than your normal 4 banger. This is if I rmember everything I read correctly. I've never rode one but I've seen one in action. Cool bike. I think the bigger Gas Gas is over 400cc and is fuel injected also. Good throttle response. Down side, not many dealers and they are probably not cheap to have repaired. It's not a bike that I myself would try to rebuild or repair on my own for sure.

Jon.
No I know they are a lot heavier. I own an 01 DRZ 250. I've had it for about a year and now I also have a KDX 200. Well the DRZ is a great bike. Low maintenance, and very dependible but heavy and not as much fun as the KDX. So I'm looking to get rid of the DRZ in favor of something funner. The KDX is staying. It rips.
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Post by jack10525 »

Colorado Mike wrote:What Mark wrote makes a lot of sense. So, in balance, I say get a KX500. :lol: Okay, so it's not a 4 stroke. It's a blast though. You're in FL, you don't have those stupid laws do you? C'mon, you know you want one.. it weighs less than a KDX and has about double the power. What could be simpler? :rolleyes:
All I can say is WOW!!! Lighter and twice the power!!! Yes I want one now!
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Post by FLAKDX »

Jafo what do you mean by your buddy was in awe of the weight difference of the KDX to the 250X???


I rode a 250X and it felt WAY lighter than the KDX. I don't know the difference in actual pounds but similar to what 4rider said I felt the weight difference was probably due to the superior handling of the Honda. I could go faster for alot longer on the Honda just due to suspension. After riding that bike it really made me want a modern set of USD forks on my KDX LOL

Jack if money were not an object I'd buy the CRF250x in a heartbeat. Outstanding 4 stroke for whatever you want to do with it.
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Post by KDXer »

Well sounds like a good reason FLAK to troll eBay a set of USDers to me... :supz:
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Post by KDXer »

Last edited by KDXer on 10:20 am Aug 08 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by clutchcover »

Parker,
In beginner/semi experienced hands, the ttr does do pretty well. It has smooth power, good bottom and is really controllable. But give yourself some time on the 220 in the tight stuff and all your brother will ever see, is your taillight flashing through the tree in the distance every once and a while. BTW, I saw your comment in my blog about riding. Anytime, I'm always up for a ride with a fellow kdxer. Maybe we can meet up halfway for a ride. You ever make it to Pocatello, or
Idaho for that matter?
Got on a 250x and it was nice, good suspenders, but I'm looking for a little more umph for my next bike. Maybe a 450x, or a kattoom. Do the cr250x's have the same valvetrain issues as the 250f's? Does a kx5 count as a thumper? :wink: :supz:
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Post by FLAKDX »

Yes and no on the valve train issue clutch. Since the 250x is ridden in the woods and off road most of the time you don't find yourself winding it to the moon which is the number one culprit of pre-mature valvetrain destruction. I rode a 450 once, once.... :shock:

That was all it took for me to realize thats a manly man machine and I'm way to much of a girly man for such a bike :oops: LOL My 150lb ass has no buisness on 50+ HP bike LOL

BTW thanks for the links Kay Dee :grin:

The Ohlins are a bit outta my range LOL but the others may not be :twisted:
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Post by kelasaki »

The best modern 4 stroke woods bike, high maintenace: Honda CRF250X
The best modern 4 stroke woods bike, medium maintenance: Yamaha WR250F
The best modern 4 stroke woods bike, low maintenance: KTM 400EXC

IMHO
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Post by KDXer »

No problem. The Ohlins were only linked for the drool factor. (insert drooling smilie face) :razz:
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Post by parker72001 »

clutchcover wrote:Parker,
In beginner/semi experienced hands, the ttr does do pretty well. It has smooth power, good bottom and is really controllable. But give yourself some time on the 220 in the tight stuff and all your brother will ever see, is your taillight flashing through the tree in the distance every once and a while.
I hope, that would be great, he always wants to ride mine, his bike is fun to ride if i ride it first part of the day, but as soon as i ride the kdx, i'm not switching! ha :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Post by jafo »

FLAKDX wrote:Jafo what do you mean by your buddy was in awe of the weight difference of the KDX to the 250X???


I rode a 250X and it felt WAY lighter than the KDX. I don't know the difference in actual pounds but similar to what 4rider said I felt the weight difference was probably due to the superior handling of the Honda. I could go faster for alot longer on the Honda just due to suspension. After riding that bike it really made me want a modern set of USD forks on my KDX LOL

Jack if money were not an object I'd buy the CRF250x in a heartbeat. Outstanding 4 stroke for whatever you want to do with it.
FLAKDX, I'd have to research the actual weights of the bikes but I'm thinking that the Honda would be alittle heavier than the KDX. Just being a four stroke counts against it in that respect. I can keep up with my buddy on his CRF-X no problem with my 220. My bikes been modified also over a normal 220. I have'nt rode his bike yet but he's gonna let me ride it sometime in the future. I won't say anythig negative about the X line of Hondas, they are great bikes no doubt. But after riding one day and while I was icing my knee, he grabbed ahold of it and could'nt believe how much lighter it felt to him. It just felt like a much lighter bike than his to him. Alot of it's in the ride hieght I'm sure more than the actual wieght of the bikes. He also has a CRF450-X also. He does not like to ride through tight woods with that bike. He prefers the 250 over the 450 in that respect. The 450 is alittle heavier than the 250 and it's also taller ride height. But it's a bad ass open terrain bike. He rides the 450 in Colorado and saves his 250 for the tight woods around here. Unlike me, he's rode bikes all his life and rode alot of MX in his youger days and is probably the best rider I run with. Most of the guys I ride with are pretty good like me but when he's in race mode, he's hard to hang with through the woods. But I hang in there. The last time I rode with him, he was on his 450-X in a poker run. My bike still had the stock front end. Thats right after I got back into riding. I stayed with him for about 30 min. and then he just checked out. I could'nt keep up with him then, but I can now.

As far as your question goes, like I said he was just amazed at how much lighter my bike felt to him than his 250-X.

Jon.
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Post by 89kdx200rdr »

i would get an 06 kx250f. its supp be 4 pounds lighter than the 05 which was 204. my kx250 weighs 214 my kdx weighs 228 (all dry weights). im hoping to get to a much lighter bike with kdx like power. the 250 is kicking my butt. and arms. and back. but its still fun as h&ll.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Flak:

'04 CRF250X 232#
KDX ..around 223#, depending on whose write-up you read.

The '06 CRF is proclaimed to be 1.1# lighter than the '05. Didn't readily see if the '05 was lighter than the '04.

Indeed the CRF250 does feel a whole lot lighter than the KDX (IMO), I've ridden both. Just look at the fuel tank on the thing!

Regarding 'High maintenance':

In '06 Honda replaced the intake valve seat..so that problem is solved....supposedly. As long as you use the right oil, change it like you're supposed to and check it often, even the older models are OK.

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