Replate Update

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Replate Update

Postby Rjcapt » 10:39 pm Jan 30 2012

A few weeks ago I sent my cylinder to Millenium Technologies.

I had a few small scratches in the exhaust side wall.

I was told it would take up to 7 days from their reception of the cylinder and they would return it to factory specs on the bore.

Exactly 7 business days after they called to let me know they had my cylinder, I got a call that the work was complete and they were sending it back.

The total cost was right around $185 including return shipping.

It looks great. It mics out to 66mm on the nose with a nice cross hatched pattern on the wall. I neglected to remove my kips shaft seals and the pipe plug in the water passage. All three were returned to me in a nice little ziplock baggie.

I will definately use MT again for the other cylinders I need redone.

Thanks to all for the advice

Pete
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Postby B737driver » 10:33 am Jan 31 2012

Sounds good. I will likely do the same. However, RB offers a cylinder sleeving service but with the note "we do not sleeve all cylinders". Anyone have this done by RB? I have carb, head, fork swap clamps and stems, and an axel to send to him why not a cylinder too. I have e-mailed him and patiently waiting for reply.
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Postby Julien D » 12:03 pm Jan 31 2012

Plating is far superior to a sleeve insert. I would never screw up a plated cylinder by installing a sleeve unless I absolutely had to.
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Postby B737driver » 01:14 pm Jan 31 2012

Makes sense. Guess it's millenium then. Thanks for steering me away from the sleeve. I'm learning as I go.
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Postby Rjcapt » 01:30 pm Jan 31 2012

Sleeving "can" be cheaper than replating but only if the cylinder is really bad.

The sleeve is not as good at transferring heat and there is always the possibility of it moving and partially blocking the ports.

That being said, a sleeve can be honed and even bored out if necessary. Neither of which can be done with a plated cylinder as the plating is not thick enough.

I'm personally not completely sold on all the inherent "evils" of sleeving, but my cylinder was not nearly bad enough to warrant one at this time.

I will be reusing my factory piston as it looks too good to replace "just because". Even then, I wouldn't use a forged unit as my engine usage doesn't warrant it (low compression, low rpm, no power adders). I don't even use forged pistons in my drag car unless I'm running nitrous. My opinion based on my experience is that the thermal differences between forged and cast actually cause more unnecessary wear if not required.

Ymmv, but that's just me.
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Postby KarlP » 01:32 pm Jan 31 2012

There is one thing I would check out on your newly plated cylinder. I ran into a problem on the last one I had done.

The RH KIPS subport shaft rides in a bore and the shaft has an o-ring on it. The pickling/plating process roughed up the inside of that bore. When I reassembled the KIPS mechanism I found it to be a little stiff to operate. I did not have a feel for how easily the whole thing should operate and figured it would loosen up once in operation.

It did not loosen up. I rode for about a year with a sticky KIPS. I finally took it all apart and used a rod and some emory cloth to smooth out the inside of the bore.

The KIPS mechanism should move silky smooth with no effort.
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Postby Rjcapt » 01:57 pm Jan 31 2012

Good call on smoothing the bores. Plating by its very definition should be hard and wear resistant. Clean it up if needed.

My cyl didn't have that issue but easily could have

One piece of advice that I have is in the kips removal:

When you are removing the nut on the kips shaft that retains the left side gear, make sure the gear is in the middle and kept from rotating by some external means (pliers and a rag maybe?). I didn't do this and as I attempted to loosen the nut ccw it put all the rotational force on the last gear and oddly enough, it broke off.

A broken gear isn't the end of the world, but it didn't have to happen.

Also, with reassembly, take your time retiming the gears. Probably won't get it the first time, but it's not hard if you're careful and double check the valves visually.

This is for an H. Have no idea if this applies to an E.

Pete
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Postby Julien D » 02:51 pm Jan 31 2012

>|<>QBB<
Rjcapt wrote:Sleeving "can" be cheaper than replating but only if the cylinder is really bad.

The sleeve is not as good at transferring heat and there is always the possibility of it moving and partially blocking the ports.

That being said, a sleeve can be honed and even bored out if necessary. Neither of which can be done with a plated cylinder as the plating is not thick enough.

I'm personally not completely sold on all the inherent "evils" of sleeving, but my cylinder was not nearly bad enough to warrant one at this time.

I will be reusing my factory piston as it looks too good to replace "just because". Even then, I wouldn't use a forged unit as my engine usage doesn't warrant it (low compression, low rpm, no power adders). I don't even use forged pistons in my drag car unless I'm running nitrous. My opinion based on my experience is that the thermal differences between forged and cast actually cause more unnecessary wear if not required.

Ymmv, but that's just me.


In the long run, plating is cheaper. Barring catastrophic failure, an aftermarket replate should last as long as you own the machine. A sleeve will need to be honed between every piston, and bored every other or so. After you've bored it as far as you can, it's time for a new sleeve. Plating would have been maintenance free. Just something to think about.

Also, the factory cast piston is fine unless you have a 220. The stock 220 pistons are known to crack and drop skirts which can cause some seriously expensive repair bills. As far as thermal expansion of cast vs. forged, it's really not an issue any more. At least not nearly as nearly as much as it once was.
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Postby B737driver » 03:50 pm Jan 31 2012

Not sure what happened with mine. Scarring is on the intake side. One reed did have a corner that failed. My guess, into the cylinder and scratched it a bit. It's not bad, but I don't think honing will do in this case. Thanks again for info.
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Postby Julien D » 04:18 pm Jan 31 2012

Many times some scuffing or scarring is fixed just by a strip and replate. They can put it on pretty thick. Worst case if there is a deep scratch they may have to do some welding. Normally the additional charge for welding is pretty minimal.
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Postby Rjcapt » 05:02 pm Jan 31 2012

>|<>QBB<
juliend wrote:>|<>QBB<
Rjcapt wrote:Sleeving "can" be cheaper than replating but only if the cylinder is really bad.

The sleeve is not as good at transferring heat and there is always the possibility of it moving and partially blocking the ports.

That being said, a sleeve can be honed and even bored out if necessary. Neither of which can be done with a plated cylinder as the plating is not thick enough.

I'm personally not completely sold on all the inherent "evils" of sleeving, but my cylinder was not nearly bad enough to warrant one at this time.

I will be reusing my factory piston as it looks too good to replace "just because". Even then, I wouldn't use a forged unit as my engine usage doesn't warrant it (low compression, low rpm, no power adders). I don't even use forged pistons in my drag car unless I'm running nitrous. My opinion based on my experience is that the thermal differences between forged and cast actually cause more unnecessary wear if not required.

Ymmv, but that's just me.


In the long run, plating is cheaper. Barring catastrophic failure, an aftermarket replate should last as long as you own the machine. A sleeve will need to be honed between every piston, and bored every other or so. After you've bored it as far as you can, it's time for a new sleeve. Plating would have been maintenance free. Just something to think about.

Also, the factory cast piston is fine unless you have a 220. The stock 220 pistons are known to crack and drop skirts which can cause some seriously expensive repair bills. As far as thermal expansion of cast vs. forged, it's really not an issue any more. At least not nearly as nearly as much as it once was.


I agree that plating in most cases is not only the best route, but also the most economical. The plating technology is outstanding and getting better. I'm still not sure I agree with all the negatives associated with sleeving, but I'm kind of obstinate (and most likely just a dinosaur....). Not trying to argue with anyone as these are just my opinions on the matter....

I have read and heard about the structural issues with the 220 piston and in that case a new forged piston seems the only logical choice, but for a 200, well until I uncover enough data to prove otherwise, I'll just stick with a cast piston. Again, I'm certainly only speaking for myself here. I'll certainly not try to talk anyone OUT of a new forged piston.

Pete
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Postby Rjcapt » 05:13 pm Jan 31 2012

>|<>QBB<
B737driver wrote:Not sure what happened with mine. Scarring is on the intake side. One reed did have a corner that failed. My guess, into the cylinder and scratched it a bit. It's not bad, but I don't think honing will do in this case. Thanks again for info.


Just remember that you can't hone a plated cyl under any circumstance. You will effectively remove the plating in doing so. That would be bad....

You probably just had an engine that inhaled some dirt at some point and that left some scuffing on the wall.

You can "deglaze" a plated cyl with some scothbrite, but don't hit it with a ball hone. The plating is very wear resistant and should keep its original cross hatched surface for many many hours of use.

I'm not sure how they fixed my scratches, but they didn't charge me for any additional welding. I would imagine that the plating material itself would fill in most scratches.
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Postby Julien D » 08:29 pm Jan 31 2012

Agree on the cast piston. When i do top ends on my 200, i usually jump on ebay and grab whatever i can get the best deal on. Cast or forged, i don't really care.

As far as the scratches, it has to be pretty deep into the bare aluminum to need a weld. Most they just plate over.
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Postby B737driver » 11:25 pm Jan 31 2012

Got the kips out after much anguish. All intact and nothing broke. Should I pull out the head studs before sending it to millennium? Some will come out easily, but some have corrosion. Apparently they were in contact with water at some point. Tried penetrating oil and using 2 nuts backed against each other, but they won't budge. Any ideas?
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Postby B737driver » 12:23 am Feb 01 2012

Sorry I am kind-of hijacking this thread to solve my own issues. I will start a new thread (hopefully tomorrow) dealing with my own rebuild. Thanks again for all the help guys....and gals ;)
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Postby Rjcapt » 10:48 am Feb 01 2012

>|<>QBB<
B737driver wrote:Got the kips out after much anguish. All intact and nothing broke. Should I pull out the head studs before sending it to millennium? Some will come out easily, but some have corrosion. Apparently they were in contact with water at some point. Tried penetrating oil and using 2 nuts backed against each other, but they won't budge. Any ideas?


If you don't remove the studs they charge extra...

There are a few ways to deal with them:

1. Double nutting is the way I do it, but you can get a dedicated stud puller. Your choice.
2. Put some penetrant on the studs that are being troublesome. Try liquid wrench or any brand name you like. Personally, I use a product called "mouse milk" (yes, I'm serious). I started using it when I first started as an A&P many years ago. Aircraft Spruce & Specialty has it.
3. Put some heat on the offending area. I like to use a heat gun for this kind of thing, it gets it warm enough to expand the aluminum, but not enough to do any damage.
4. When you put them back in, use some anti seize compound. The steel of the studs reacts with the aluminum of the cylinder creating what is known as dissimilar metal corrosion.
5. One last thing about their removal, don't be afraid to put some real torque on the nuts you're doubling up. Use 2 box end wrenches and tighten them up. Then use the bottom nut to remove the stud. Little elbow grease and they will come right out.

Pete
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Postby Rjcapt » 10:52 am Feb 01 2012

>|<>QBB<
B737driver wrote:Sorry I am kind-of hijacking this thread to solve my own issues. I will start a new thread (hopefully tomorrow) dealing with my own rebuild. Thanks again for all the help guys....and gals ;)


This is my thread, hijack away. I started it in response to your PM that I couldn't figure out how to respond to anyway.

Pete
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Postby vaughnp » 01:50 pm Feb 01 2012

To have the PM feature I think you have to donate to the site.

Did you send along the new piston and rings with the cylinder to Millenium?

Ive never had anything replated so Im not sure of the protocol

Thanks!
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Postby Julien D » 03:59 pm Feb 01 2012

It's best to send the piston kit with the cylinder, or buy a piston kit from them.
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Postby Rjcapt » 04:03 pm Feb 01 2012

I asked them about this and they said to only send a piton if I wanted to use a bore size other than stock.

I sent mine without a piston.
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