Dyna Ring Hell (SOLVED)

Got questions? We got answers....
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Post by SS109 »

>|<>QBB<
JoKDX220r wrote:Here's a reply from Garry at EFM about the clutch lever : " Sorry no, the KDX clutch works backwards compared to most newer style clutchs "
My bike is a kdx 220 2003, the previous owner was johnkdx220 you can get an idea of the troubles he get throught when he installed it : http://www.kdxrider.net/forums/viewtopi ... hlight=efm

I like autoclutches, I tried some ktms with rekluse on them that worked fine.
Thank you! However, it looks like John got it to where he was happy with it. Also, his was an H series where my bike is an E. Slightly different but could be enough to make a huge difference.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
tmgrn220r
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 06:06 pm Apr 05 2011
Country:
Location: western ma

Post by tmgrn220r »

hi guys i just installed my dyna ring in 20 minutes bike on its side.bought from another member on this forum.read the instructions and yes they could use more tech info and pics. everything went fine and not ever doing this before i had some issues reconecting clutch cable. but i removed the lever and bingo done.filled up with 5w 50 as described and warmed up bike.a few minutes of cable adjustment and im good to go. its ben about 6 rides in on new set up and i love it. im finding i can run 1 gear higher most of the time. i decided to try all 6 springs in dyna and found no diff. the clutch feel has no free play and pull is alittle stiffer. im sure im set up correctly but no slip anywhere with no stall during locking up brakes and put in gear without stalling. i did have concern with cover having so much pressure durring instalation
team green
User avatar
sped66
Supporting Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 11:29 am Oct 09 2010
Country: USA
Location: Near Winston-Salem, NC

Post by sped66 »

>|<>QBB<
sped66 wrote:Well since I have extra springs I'm not using anyway, maybe I'll heat a couple of them up to see if I can weaken them a tad & give that a try.
After not riding for over 2 months, looks like I'll get to this weekend.
I heated a couple of the extra judder springs with a propane torch today. (Be careful if you do this! The springs will glow red hot in about 1 second!) After they cooled, I squished them with my fingers to see if they felt any softer than unheated springs. They don't. My guess is that this idea is a waste of time but I'll install them anyway for this weekends ride & see. My next plan of attack will be to order stiffer clutch springs & hope that yields something positive.
As it is now, trying to lug in a higher gear is a clutch-slip-fest.
In the stable: '00 KDX220R, '02 XR250R
Gone but not forgotten: '80 XR80, '87 XR200R, '94 KDX250, '01 YZ426F, '86 XR220R
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Post by SS109 »

Judder springs? You know that you are supposed to remove the judder springs from the clutch pack, right? Are you talking about the springs in the Dyna itself?

I also think that stiffer clutch springs might be the answer. I know mine are stock with no telling how many hours on them. I'm going to replace them and see if it helps.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
sped66
Supporting Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 11:29 am Oct 09 2010
Country: USA
Location: Near Winston-Salem, NC

Post by sped66 »

>|<>QBB<
SS109 wrote:Judder springs? You know that you are supposed to remove the judder springs from the clutch pack, right? Are you talking about the springs in the Dyna itself?
Guess I used the wrong terminology. Yeah, I meant I torched the tiny springs that go in the Dynaring.
But what's this about removing springs from the clutch pack? As in premanently remove something? Did I eff-up somewhere?
In the stable: '00 KDX220R, '02 XR250R
Gone but not forgotten: '80 XR80, '87 XR200R, '94 KDX250, '01 YZ426F, '86 XR220R
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Post by SS109 »

There are two judder springs in an E series KDX. I'm not sure about the H. You should have removed them (it?) when installing the Dyna. They look similar to these metal rings...

Image
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
sped66
Supporting Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 11:29 am Oct 09 2010
Country: USA
Location: Near Winston-Salem, NC

Post by sped66 »

Oh right, right, right. Funny, I'd never have guessed those were referred to as springs!
In the stable: '00 KDX220R, '02 XR250R
Gone but not forgotten: '80 XR80, '87 XR200R, '94 KDX250, '01 YZ426F, '86 XR220R
hockeyboysomers
Member
Posts: 74
Joined: 12:57 pm Jan 23 2007
Country:

Post by hockeyboysomers »

I finally solved why my Dyna-ring clutch lever didn't work. My Dyna-ring worked as advertised except I couldn't over ride the ring with my clutch lever. I found out the hard way that being able to disengage it is very important. In one case, the throttle stuck wide open in third gear, it nearly scared me to death. The bike took off, and only by applying both front and rear brake could I slow enough to hit the kill switch. The second time I was not so lucky. In a HS race they took us down a nasty steep boulder strewn terraced downhill. I would never go down it if I had a choice. I made it down the first lap, but dreaded the thought for the next lap. When I got to the crest of the hill I shifted into first gear, so I wouldn't stall and have some engine braking. The only problem is the Dyna-ring freewheels at idle. At the crest of the first boulder the engine hesitated and I thought it might stall. I didn't want to ride all the way down on a dead engine so I cracked the throttle. Except the engine didn't stall it surged forward as the clutch engaged. I pulled the clutch in but it did nothing. I launched off the first boulder into space. I bounced off the next boulder after I hit. I tried but couldn't help gassing it more. As I launched again I knew it was time to part with the bike. I landed in a pile of tire sized rocks. The bike landed 10ft away against a tree. It took a while before I could even get up. Luckily I didn't break anything, Bruised my shoulder, ribs and thigh. I only bent the sub-frame on the bike and eventually I was able to limp out of the woods. It turns out the Dyna-ring was adjusted properly. I have a ASV lever that lets you adjust the throw of the lever. Mine was adjusted so that the lever was closer to the bar to make it easier to feather the clutch, but with the Dyna-ring I wasn't getting the full pull, and the Dyna-ring was not disengaging. I adjusted the ASV lever for a full pull and now I can over-ride the clutch at max rpm. Moral of the story is The Dyna-ring is a tricky bugger to adjust properly, and DON'T EVER RIDE WITH IT IF YOU CAN NOT OVER-RIDE IT.
User avatar
sped66
Supporting Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 11:29 am Oct 09 2010
Country: USA
Location: Near Winston-Salem, NC

Post by sped66 »

SS109 wrote:I also think that stiffer clutch springs might be the answer. I know mine are stock with no telling how many hours on them. I'm going to replace them and see if it helps.
SS109, did you ever get around to trying stiffer clutch springs?
A buddy of mine just installed a Rekluse on his CRF & it behaves EXACTLY the way I wish my DynaRing would. (His kit came with replacement springs which reminded me of this thread.) I've been living with the "super-slippy" autoclutch long enough so it's time to revisit this thread.

I just installed a set of THESE today which are supposed to be 10% stiffer than stock. They surely felt like it when squeezing them with my fingers. They also looked to be about an 1/8" taller then stock, unless maybe my old ones are simply past their service limit. As expected, I had to do a lot of adjusting with the clutch cable to find the bare minimum "no-stall" zone that I like. Clutch lever is quite hard to pull in now which doesn't thrill me.
However... I will say that 1st gear testing in my back yard was positive & the clutch seemed to fully engage just past idle like I'd hoped. I'll be riding Sunday afternoon for the true test & will report back. :please:
In the stable: '00 KDX220R, '02 XR250R
Gone but not forgotten: '80 XR80, '87 XR200R, '94 KDX250, '01 YZ426F, '86 XR220R
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by SS109 »

:supz: Thanks for the input on the springs!I have a set of those springs on order from the ThumperTalk store but they have been backordered since March 20th. First time ordering from them and this is the only place I have ever encountered such a delay. :roll: Anyways, yeah, I was hoping they would help with the Dyna's slipping. I also purchased new OEM frictions, a new Motion Pro Terminator cable, and MSR AOF clutch perch/lever setup. You might look into getting a clutch perch/lever setup that gives more leverage and smoother operation to help with the stiff pull. If I ever get it all together I'll report how it all works.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
dfeckel
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 644
Joined: 07:46 am Nov 09 2009
Country:

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by dfeckel »

My Dyna Ring resides in its box on the shelf below my work bench. It just slipped too much. So much that shifting became hard when the tranny fluid heated up. When I took it out, I noticed that my steel plates were discolored from the heat. One of these days I'll finally do what it takes to use the H-series EFM auto clutch I bought a while back (either make a spacer plate for the clutch cover or rebuild and install the H-series motor I have residing in Tidy Cat boxes in the garage).
David Eckel
User avatar
sped66
Supporting Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 11:29 am Oct 09 2010
Country: USA
Location: Near Winston-Salem, NC

Post by sped66 »

sped66 wrote:1st gear testing in my back yard was positive & the clutch seemed to fully engage just past idle like I'd hoped.
I guess that 1st gear winds up so quickly that the back yard test fooled me a bit.
The stiffer springs made a difference but not as much as I'd hoped. It fully engages sooner but you still have to hit a higher rpm than what I think it should. I suppose shimming the springs with some washers might improve it further but I think I've had enough. All I really wanted was a stall eliminator but I guess this auto clutch business just isn't for me. I'm thinking I'll take it out & go back to stock. I'd rather stall ocassionally than put up with down shifting all of the time.
Anyone who might want a slightly used DynaRing with roughly a dozen rides on it, at a great price, can keep an eye out in the Parts For Sale section.

SS109, I hope your results are better than mine. I'm fairly convinced that the design flaw is in the strength of the little DynaRing springs. If they could be made weaker somehow I think that might possibly do the trick. If you're more determined than I, you might try compressing the springs while heating them with a torch to make them a tad shorter when at rest. But I guess that you might also bork the "no stall" effect at idle. I would try it myself but I'm out of patience.
In the stable: '00 KDX220R, '02 XR250R
Gone but not forgotten: '80 XR80, '87 XR200R, '94 KDX250, '01 YZ426F, '86 XR220R
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by SS109 »

Damn, that sucks. I hope my results are better. I also have some other ideas I plan on trying if the springs don't work like I want. I am thinking of increasing the size of the bearing balls, same size but in tungsten (heavier), or a combo of both might also work. The balls are cheap and easy to swap out so it will be my next step if necessary. If all of that doesn't get things to where I like it then I'll go back to stock as well.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
sped66
Supporting Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 11:29 am Oct 09 2010
Country: USA
Location: Near Winston-Salem, NC

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by sped66 »

LOL, I edited my post as you were replying. Check the last paragraph for another idea, but you may be on to something with the ball bearings as well.
In the stable: '00 KDX220R, '02 XR250R
Gone but not forgotten: '80 XR80, '87 XR200R, '94 KDX250, '01 YZ426F, '86 XR220R
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by SS109 »

Well, hang on to it just a little while longer and let me see what I can figure out. My last week of work is this Thursday so I should be able to get my bike done within a few weeks.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
sped66
Supporting Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 11:29 am Oct 09 2010
Country: USA
Location: Near Winston-Salem, NC

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by sped66 »

SS109 wrote:Well, hang on to it just a little while longer and let me see what I can figure out.
Alright, I'll put it on the shelf for now.
In the stable: '00 KDX220R, '02 XR250R
Gone but not forgotten: '80 XR80, '87 XR200R, '94 KDX250, '01 YZ426F, '86 XR220R
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by SS109 »

Just found this while doing some searching. It is on how to adjust the Rekluse Z-Start auto clutch.
Adjusting the z-Start Engagement RPM
The engine speed at which the z-Start begins to engage the clutch, also called the stall speed, can be adjusted. Included with the z-Start are two Wave Springs and 10 Tungsten Carbide balls to fine tune the z-Start engagement. The Wave Spring is located inside the z-Start between the Pressure Plate and Lower Assembly. To adjust the stall speed, it is necessary to remove the clutch cover and the M3 screws holding the z-Start Top Plate to access the Wave Spring. Refer to the z-Start Parts View and the installation instructions for detailed information on how to change the Wave Spring.

Using more Tungsten Carbide balls will cause the clutch to engage faster and closer to engine idle speed. Using fewer will delay clutch engagement. Always space tungsten carbide balls evenly around the Pressure Plate to maintain proper balance of the clutch.

Use the following chart as a guideline for setting the stall speed. Remember many factors can affect the stall speed from bike to bike so the following chart is only a guideline. You can also make fine tuning adjustments by adjusting your idle speed.
Note: After testing your z-Start clutch, if it is desired to have it engage at a different RPM, then refer to the following chart for Wave Spring and ball combinations:

C137L2 Wave Spring 10 x TC Balls & 30 Steel balls Low Engagement RPM (typically just above idle)
C137L2 Wave Spring 5 x TC Balls & 35 Steel balls Medium-Low Engagement RPM
C137L2 Wave Spring All Steel Balls High Engagement RPM
C137L3 Wave Spring 10 x TC Balls & 30 Steel balls Medium-Low Engagement RPM
C137L3 Wave Spring 5 x TC Balls & 35 Steel balls Medium- Engagement RPM
C137L3 Wave Spring All Steel Balls Highest Engagement RPM

Key: -TC = Tungsten Carbide. The chart is based on having 40 total balls in the Pressure Plate at all settings. -The C137L2 Wave Spring is shorter than the C137L3.
Source:http://www.rekluse.com/KTM_250SXF_191-238-083005.pdf

So, this backs up my tungsten ball theory. I had no idea that Rekluse was using tungsten so this came as sort of a nice confirmation of what I had thought would work. So, I'm moving forward with this and will look into finding a cheap source for them (5/16"or .3125" or 7.94mm). Those little balls are pricey for their size!
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by SS109 »

An update. I have got about 5 hours on the Dyna Ring since adding some tungsten carbide balls from Rekluse. (If anyone wants to do the same the cost is $4 each and it is part #432-308) My setup goes like this:

Dyna Ring with two springs installed
six tungsten carbide balls to replace six standard steel balls
new OEM frictions
unknown hours OEM clutch springs
MSR AOI clutch lever (the huge adjuster makes adjusting the DR easy and you can even do it on the fly!)
Motion Pro Terminator clutch cable
ATF Type F
13/48 gearing

The DR now locks up more solid and at a much lower RPM. I'm really liking it now. No stalling and pulls pretty hard from the get go. It pulls hard enough that I'm thinking about going down to a 47 on the rear sprocket. I still think the engagement/lockup point can be lowered even further so I plan to try the EBC clutch springs I ordered. I also might try adding three more of the tungsten carbide balls to see how that goes. I'll report back what I find out.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
sped66
Supporting Member
Posts: 427
Joined: 11:29 am Oct 09 2010
Country: USA
Location: Near Winston-Salem, NC

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by sped66 »

Thanks for the pm alerting me to this update SS109. Any particular reason you're using OEM frictions? Or is that what the E series calls for?
SS109 wrote:I still think the engagement/lockup point can be lowered even further so I plan to try....
Sounds like it's still not to your satisfaction. My DR is staying on the shelf for now. :pop:
In the stable: '00 KDX220R, '02 XR250R
Gone but not forgotten: '80 XR80, '87 XR200R, '94 KDX250, '01 YZ426F, '86 XR220R
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Dyna Ring Hell

Post by SS109 »

I'm using the OEM's only because that is what Alan had told me they designed the steels plates from. It was just one thing less to worry about. I might try some aftermarket ones if and when the OEM's wear out.

Satisfied? No, not 100% but pretty close. Probably 90-95% satisfied. Of course, that could be just because I'm not used to an auto-clutch. It does pull hard right off the the bottom unlike the stock Dyna. I'll be putting in the EBC springs today so I should have some more info by tomorrow.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
Post Reply