Interesting read about squish technology

[KDXer]

Curious to hear anyones thoughts. Does it look and sound like a logical method ?? I have a mate with a KTM380 who is having problems I will explain more soon and post some pics.

Theory
http://somender-singh.com/
Pics
http://somender-singh.com/content/view/68/49/

[toddco]

Ya seen this before 2 stoke heads with groving all the way around like #bers on a clock. Madd MPG numbers and so on. We better get the old dyno out and start doing some R&D to beleave it.

[canyncarvr]

Re: 'multiple flame front propagation'

????

Since when is THAT a good thing. It's something that is to be avoided.

Re: 'with out the interference of knock ..'

Isn't that the opposite of what he just said?

Re: 'has been awarded an US Patent..'

Do you know what this means? It means nothing and the fact that it is mentioned in such a way (awarded!!] is suspicious.

A patent means nothing but what you GOT it for is not a repeat or one-off of somebody elses 'thing'. It doesn't have to work, doesn't have to have any value, is of NO meaning whatsoever.

Yeah...if you think up a 'Tickle me Elmo' doll and DON'T patent it, when TYCO starts making the exact same thing and you ain't sellin' NUTHIN'..you're screwed.

I'd suspect that a Tickle me Elmo doll in your back pocket would have about the same effect...................

I'll bet it would work REAL good with one'a them magnets strapped to the fuel line to 'break apart' those darned clumped fuel molecules.

[IdahoCharley]

I'm with CC - I can't think of why it would work, and it seems counter to what you normally want. The pictures of the machine work it very crude. (Peanut grinder and a cut-off wheel approach)

Normally you don't want intentional stress riser areas in area that are placed under stress since they tend to be areas which lead to failure - looks to me like combustion chambers which have their head grooved for some additional turbulance would be prime candiates for becoming "crack heads".

[Green Hornet]

A Tickle Me Elmo doll in your front pocket would work better. Thats what Inda told me

[GS]

Carvr,
Had something to do with patents? I have some experience...and you are pretty much right on the money... an inverse relationship seems to exist whereby;

more patent protection talk = less product value.

Seen too many "clever" inventions come and GO in my 50 yrs.

So, those drag cars are still fast, even with the "help" of the grooves. Wonder how they figure out where to cut the heads?

[canyncarvr]

GS:

No sir. Absolutely have nothing to do with patents and know nothing of them other than what I'd consider common knowledge.

Not only is 'more..talk= less..value' most likely true, but your mention of 'those drag cars' brings up another point.

..like..what the hell are they supposed to mean?

Some pictures of smokey burnouts and front tires off the ground means what?

Exactly nothing.

Kind'a like 'Patented' means nothing.

How about 'Patent Pending'? That's even worse!!

Or..'Patent Applied for'? That's gotta be the worstest!.

Re: 'Crack heads' and 'Pocket Me Elmos'....yanno, most of the fun of this site is reading stuff like that!

[GS]

Patent Law was 1st established in order to prevent potentially great ideas from dying off with the inventor. So, the theory goes, give the inventor some protection while at the same time FORCING the inventor to fully disclose what they have invented !

Before a patent is granted, most Patent offices publish the application in it's entirety. SO, if you're curious...simply get a copy. But don't ever think these are GREAT ideas just cause they meet the test of "Patentability"....cause they mostly aint.

VERY VERY few ever see any use at all. VERY few are enforceable, BUT proceed with great care in that regard.

Just my experience. YMMV

Greg

[canyncarvr]

BTW...did you notice all the 'seems to' in the write up? 'Seems to' do about most everything.

You SAID you were curious to hear.

Tired of hearing, now?

[KDXer]

Hehe, never get tired of you Brad. Well as it turns out the guy with the problems couldn't be bothered to listen to logic so I have given up trying to get answers for him. It had very strange burn patterns on the head that seem (to my pea sized brain) to indicate poor and non symetrical machine work (it has had extensive machine work IMHO TOO much). If you are interested to see the pics let me know and I'll post em up for chits and giggles. I personally thank you all for taking the time to help me/this guy out but alas to no avail. Cheers for your time and effort... Trev...

[skipro3]

Looks to me like someone took a dremel or saw blade and made a groove in the head. Surely someone has a head laying around they could carve a goove into and test this out.
What's that goove got to do to the volume of the head as well? Seems compression ratio has got to be affected. Now that might affect that pinging he was talking about....

[canyncarvr]

It's been a day or two since I read thru the stuff...but I recall reading the compression ratio has to be increased with the la-la-la of the head magic. So, it's not a matter of increasing volume, reducing compression. WALA!!! No more pinging.

...maybe I could be 'awarded' a patent on THAT idea!!

Crap gas? Got detonation? I can FIX it. My modification seems to ALSO result in better handling, better coffee in the morning, AND shinier paint!!

I'd like to see the pics...just for fun.

[KDXer]

[IdahoCharley]

Seeping head gasket problem? Warped head?

Maybe cooling effects of coolant seepage on one side of piston crown. Doesn't look like O-Ring failure.

P.S. I think it would be very difficult to have the fuel mixture so imbalanced due to porting changes that you would end up with a piston/head looking so lopsided carbon deposite wise.

I think the intake ports are just reflecting a slight wash on top of the piston crown: i.e. as the 'clean' incoming charge sweeps into the chamber it clears some of the 'dirty' coolant/fuel mixture away from the intake port area. It is a little concerning that the spark plug orientation seems to reflect the direct path of the burn as it does - I just contribute this to "chance" though.

Don't really know - just giving you my .02 worth and you get what you pay for!!

Don't know if it really matters - but isn't that a KTM cylinder??

[canyncarvr]

'Seeping head gasket problem? Warped head? '

Yep.

Actually, IC only put the '?' in just to cover his bases. He knows he's right.

KayD said it was a punkin cylinder already, BTW.

What's with the red hash mark right where the problem is? KayD..you knew this already I guess?

That mark is right at a water jacket passage. The little hole is a restrictor similar to the same sort or config in the KDX (and the reason I won't use KopperKote anymore). Is that a restrictor to aid circulation in some way? Seems common anyway.

OK..I'll hedge some, too. It SEEMS (in keeping with Sihnghorsen Abuddha's writeup) very clear there is a track from the leaking point to the cylinder. Heck, you couldn't PhotoShop a better example.

IS the blasted clean bit on the crown related to where that track is? In the 'bottom left' sidewise view of the crown, it looks to be so. IF the two match, I would wonder about an o-ring failure myself. Kind of like a bearing seal failure? Seals don't fail for NO reason, and THE MOST LIKELY reason is bearing failure. The supported shaft wobbles, THEN the seal goes out. Similarly...it's not a problem with the oring first...it's a problem with the mating metal surfaces that cause the oring to leak. If the pics are oriented similarly, the markings DO fit together.

The shadowing of the ground electrode is what's making the mark at the spot on the head. I'd assume so, anyway.

This bike didn't lose coolant? Really?

Next time it's taken apart...do a better job of getting the coolant out first. There's way too much sign of green goo everywhere for that having been done in in this case. A good swallow of that junk in the crankcase isn't what you want to have happen.

IC...KayD paid you $.02? Gee...that small amount wasn't worth the postage, was it?

I got it!! The red hash mark is right where the gash needs to be slashed so that it 'seems' everything is much better!!! I see MORE PONIES on the horizon!!! But...they aren't coming this way..I'm chasing them!! I can tell from the HS on my boot!!

(that an only slightly veiled comment abouty slashing and gashing cylinders and pistons)

Cheers.

Hey!! If you happen to be over NZ way and see Dan Thoren from the US team, tell him to shut his kid the hell up! He'll understand after he thinks about it for a bit, especially when you tell him you ride a KDX!!!

[IdahoCharley]

After reading Brad's comment I reread the thread and saw that you (KDXer) were going to KTM pictures - Duh to me.

Anyway having owned two KTM 380s I recognized the decompression port since I believe only the KTM 380 has one stock on dirt bikes.

Couple of notes for your friend's bike based upon my experience.

1. Squish is WAY off on the 380 stock. My 98 was .095 and my 00 was .100 inch. Should be set somewhere around .055 to .060 inch. Eric Gorr did my 98 and Clay from Munn Racing did my 00. Significantly better low speed behavior with the tighter specs and both ran very well on pump fuel.

RBdesign could also correct the head squish.

2. If the owner is still using the NOZX needles it will never be jetted correctly.

3. The head bolts are OEM spec'd for 25 ftlbs of torque. I'm normally tell everyone to follow the manufacture's specs since I have a idea of what typically goes into developing torque specs. However, in this case, the spec is too high and you are likely to go beyond the yield strenght of the OEM fastener.

Stay in line with the specs of all the other manufactures for this size of fastener (19-21 FT/LBs) used in this application and you will not have any sealing problems provided the bolts are not already stretched.

[canyncarvr]

I've read similar points of view about the NOZX series.

Yeah...I read the 'He's a numchuck and on his own now' sort of thing, but if you want a jet kit from JD for that bike (I'm assuming there is one..likely), let me know. I'll get one and send it your way. I don't know what needle JD uses. He has his own made I think for some bikes...the 380? I don't know. You could contact him via the web, have him specify what you need, I'll ship it to you under the old 'bike parts' label or whatever it is that works down there.

25ft/lbs?? IC, you realize he will have NO idea what you're talking about 'eh? How 'bout some Fig Newtons and metres? ..just kidding. That's indeed a tad on the high side. Great input...and from someone that knows the bike, too!!

A very worthwhile $.02 I'd say.

Cheers!

IC...that carbon track across the inside o-ring IS a leak, isn't it?

Do these things NOT run a head gasket? Just the two rings? Combustion pressures can't be held in with a rubber ring, can they? Must be a gasket on top of the two of 'em?

If the head has already been 'fixed' and now needs to be 'repaired', keep in mind that some terrific dyno-whoppin' modifications cannot BE repaired. There is already too much damage done.

[Colorado Mike]

back up a Kouple.. CC, you don't use copper coat kuz there's restrictor built into the head gasket? Whazzat got to do whiff it? Kontamineight yore Koolint ore sumpin?

[GS]

O rings aren't all made of rubber...are they? Copper anyone? Don't know about KTM...

[canyncarvr]

Re: 'Kontamineight??'

All sorts of copper specks stuck to the rad cap. Can't get'm off.

But..I'm sure that's the ONLY place they be!

...right?



The o-rings in the KTM are orange. That means silicone..I think. Hi temp at that. No..they aren't all made of rubber, neoprene or other black stuff.

V8 race engines that are o-ringed use copper wire sometimes. Most head gaskets these days come with an 'integral' oring sort of squashed thing.