Different needle for the 33mm carb?

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JasonK94Z
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Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by JasonK94Z »

I have a 220 with the original carb on it. Has anyone found a different needle that works well with the 33mm carb?
2002 KDX 220R
2003 KLR 650
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Julien D
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by Julien D »

I think I'd just start with the CEL / DEL needles and see how they do. The stock needle in the 220 is very close to the stock 200 needle anyway. The only difference in 1173L and 1173N is a slightly richer L1 profile. CEL / DEL are richer overall than either, so you will need to jet it after swapping the needles out, regardless.
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IDRIDR
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Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by IDRIDR »

I'm curious about this as also have the 220 with original carb.

Are these CEL / DEL / 1173L / 1173N needles Keihin products? How would this compare to the JDJetting kit?
2003 KDX 220. RB Carb & Head Mods. Desert pipe. She's a runner!
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by Julien D »

117xx needles are Kawasaki OEM parts. The CEL and such are keihin. See the needle guide sticky for conversion info .
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Tedh98
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by Tedh98 »

What you are really buying with the JD kit are his proprietary needles. The rest of the jets are just like the ones you can buy anywhere.

I had his needles for a while and really liked them, but I got them at half price on ebay. As much as Iiked them I wouldnt pay full price though. Instead I would stick with the del/cel needles.
cornishwrecker220
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Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

I tried both CEL & DEL in my 33mm 220 carb & It ran awful....no matter how much I adjusted this & changed that I couldn't get it to run the way I wanted. These needles work with some success on the earlier 200s & later ones but not so on the 220 probably due to the 220s porting & smaller carb ( Kawasaki needles differ on the 220 than the 200 anyway so that says something )
My simplest advice is, & I have said it before..if you have a 220 then fit the 35mm carb off a 200 ( use the needle & slide from your 220 & jet accordingly ) or fit a 1990 kx 125 carb ( 36mm ) or spend a few $$ getting it bored out.. :grin:
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by Julien D »

That's very interesting. If you do the math on the 1173L vs 1173N, it comes to about a mm longer L1 length on the N, which should make it just a hair leaner in the 1/4 throttle range. Not very much difference at all. If you put the CEL/DEL next to the stock needle in a spreadsheet, they look insanely rich over the entire throttle range. This can have you running jets that seem like they would be WAYY too small before you get back on track. They do have a better overall profile though, so after re-jetting to match the end result can be quite nice. Since I haven't any experience with a CEL or DEL in a 220 carb, I will have to take your word for it. Doesn't make sense though, considering how close the stock needles are to the 200 version. I will certainly second that the best choice would be to RB the 220 carb or replace it with a 35mm carb from a 200. :mrgreen:
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Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

I spent hours & hours trying to get the jetting right with both CEL/DEL needles in my 220....swopping out the pilot & main jets for smaller & smaller ...I just got fed up messing around & road testing in the end.
The 220 is a completely different bike than the 200 in the way it puts its power down & the way it behaves down low. ( that's how they designed it ).. it prefers slightly leaner jetting on the pilot ( I run a 38 ) due to its slightly richer needle , & as it doesn't rev out like the 200 there really isn't much need to remove the air box lid unless the motor has been breathed on....fitting the larger carb but retaining the 220 needle ( mid clip ) & going up on the main jet to a 150/155 really gives the 220 some useful & noticeable umph without loosing any of the famous bottom end grunt.. :grin:
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by Julien D »

Sounds like solid advice. If I get a chance, I'll swap a cel and del into a buddies 220 just to get a feel for it.
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by JasonK94Z »

cornishwrecker220 wrote:I spent hours & hours trying to get the jetting right with both CEL/DEL needles in my 220....swopping out the pilot & main jets for smaller & smaller ...I just got fed up messing around & road testing in the end.
The 220 is a completely different bike than the 200 in the way it puts its power down & the way it behaves down low. ( that's how they designed it ).. it prefers slightly leaner jetting on the pilot ( I run a 38 ) due to its slightly richer needle , & as it doesn't rev out like the 200 there really isn't much need to remove the air box lid unless the motor has been breathed on....fitting the larger carb but retaining the 220 needle ( mid clip ) & going up on the main jet to a 150/155 really gives the 220 some useful & noticeable umph without loosing any of the famous bottom end grunt.. :grin:
You had to go UP on the main jet in your 220?
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by Julien D »

He's running a larger carb in his 220. Larger bore carb, more air, needs more fuel.

* I'd still like to try the CEL and/or DEL in a 220. There is no reason why it shouldn't work quite well. If you feel like trying it out, needles are pretty cheap, so go for it. You can see here the difference in profiles, using the stock 220 needle as a baseline, and then comparing the 1173n, CEL, and DEL needles.
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by fuzzy »

I've found in the past, for a given engine/carb, an increased bore will want less pilot and more main.
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Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by IDRIDR »

Good discussion, thanks. I'll now be on the lookout for a 200 carb. What would be a fair price to pay for one?
2003 KDX 220. RB Carb & Head Mods. Desert pipe. She's a runner!
2006 KLX 250 w/351 big bore. A well-sorted dual sporter.
2006 KLR 650. Mostly stock.
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cornishwrecker220
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Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by cornishwrecker220 »

Make sure you fit the 35mm carb from a `H` series KDX 200.

The earlier `E` series 35mm carb will work fine if you cant find any other, but the slide is a leaner cutaway , also the needle is different too although you wont need to fit either of these to your new 220s 35mm carb as you will be running your 220 slide & needle in there anyway, but its nice to have them as spares.
I am running the 36mm carb off a 1990 kx 125 with nice results...again I am running my 220 slide & needle with the clip in the 3rd position ..a 38 pilot jet & 150 main jet....boyesen rad valve , modified air box lid with the snorkel removed , FMF woods pipe ..my 220 has also been fully tuned but before when I installed the 200 carb (some time ago now) & it ran great with very little jetting tweeks ..., then I picked up a new old stock 1990 36mm kx 125 carb & I was very surprised just how much difference that made to the mid range pull with hardly any loss in bottom end torque ! :supz:

KDX 220 needle ID= R1173L

KDX 200 `H` series needle ID = R1172k

KDX 200 `E` series needle ID = R1173N

I think the CEL/DEL needles will work for either of the series 200s with a little fine tuning but for the 220 is just not really worth the trouble & time

You could send your carb & slide off to RB designs ( if a 200 carb proves difficult to source or expensive to buy ) I think he bores them out to 36mm , modifies the slide & installs a divider plate complete with new jets that are already dialled in ...just plug & play !
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by JasonK94Z »

Thanks everyone. I will send my carb off to RB and let him do his magic on it. That way when I get it back, it will be dialed in to my riding conditions fairly close. :supz:
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by fuzzy »

36mm is a bigger body...how did it fit?
'91 KDX 200 Project $300 KDX
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by JasonK94Z »

fuzzy wrote:36mm is a bigger body...how did it fit?

RB bores the 33mm carb to 36mm so its the same carb, so same fitment. He also works some magic to the pilot circuit and adds a divider plate to the carb also.
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Re: Different needle for the 33mm carb?

Post by fuzzy »

I was talking about cornish's comment "I am running the 36mm carb off a 1990 kx 125 with nice results"
'91 KDX 200 Project $300 KDX
'95 KDX 200 Project $600 KDX
'94 WR 250 Always a project
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