Cripes....more about KX forks...

Questions and comments about converting to beefier forks..
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Cripes....more about KX forks...

Post by canyncarvr »

The forks we're dealing with are bladder type? Bumper type? I read, "Bladder forks were only used on some full sized KX's for a few years. They have quit using them." on MXOffroad (MX-Tuner).

I don't see on the RT site any indication of the type of KYBs in different model KXs.

There seems to be a lot of complaint about the bladder type fork. Seems a common thing to disable the whole bladder idea with the removal of some internal seals:

Click HERE!

Most notably is this:
Terry Hay wrote:Know Fear
For the type of riding you are doing the springs should be fine, but as you can gather from the content of this post there are a few issues internally. Firstly as a newcomer to the suspension game I would suggest we keep it simple. Firstly remove the bladder (Go Steve!) and the white sealing band from the cartridge. There is also a finely machined washer on the flange at the top of the cartridge where the spring seats. This inhibits oil flow to the lower portion of the fork. With the sealing band removed there is possibly no reason to touch this, but I remove it to ensure maximum flow and replace it with a normal spring preload washer that doesn't seal the area. I wouldn't recommend sitting the spring directly on the flange itself. If you don't have a preload washer you can drill a few holes in the machined one. Just make sure you leave no burrs. Run the oil level at 120mm from the top with the springs out and the fork completely compressed. The midvalve on that particular model has one of the worst production designs I have come across. In fact the 2000 KX fork should have seen Mr KAYABA and his team of designers firmly attached to the testicle clamp. You really need to address the midvalve and base valve to get the best out of this model for your application. Now that we have addressed the design issues I'm going to stop short of any valving recommendations as this conflicts with a lot of the guys on this forum. After all thats how they make their living.
Regards
Terry Hay
Considering the model years he mentions, I'd say we have been talking about bladder forks?

In which case...it seems they sucketh most large...and must needs be fixed!

Chuck the bladder!! Change the oil heighth?

Inda? Are you home?

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Post by m0rie »

CC, I recall reading about how the newer KYB forks on the KX250F needed to have the bladder disabled because of the harshness. There is a good write up over at thumpertalk. Check it out here.

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showth ... ost1392002

Seems like just disable it and get on with things.

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Post by canyncarvr »

Yeah. I'm reading on that (KXF) issue myself. What I don't know is exactly where you will ifind the KYB bladder fork.

Looking at the KYB take-apart link that Inda posted...I don't know if that white thing is the bladder? ..or not. Nothing in the write-up ever mentions 'bladder'. The 'white thing' they call a 'spring guide.'

Damn...I hate my own ignorance!! Whether I have no reason to know anything about it is no excuse! :wink:

The whole point (well, one of 'em) is these forks seem to have a 'harsh' problem. Ski indicates his are that way (maybe a seal/stiction thing).

Wouldn't it be great to find that everyone does 'X' mod to their KYB forks to get rid of that problem!!

Most of what I've read concerning the KX fork swap has nothing to do with the setup of the forks themselves. The link I listed above has some excellent info in it (if the bladder issue even applies to the forks we're talking about). Jeremy (MX-Tech) says he was hard-won to the 'disable the bladder' point of view.

**edit**
OK..The bladder is at the bottom of the fork assy. I guess you can just trash the whole bladder. And the white ring is the 'RB' or 'Restrictive Barrier', right? I've got too many windows open and read too many things. You can trash that too, right? But isn't there a considered opinion to replace it with some sort of washer for the spring to sit on....right?

My head is starting to hurt.........

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Post by skipro3 »

There's a couple things I don't do: Split cases and rebuild modern USD forks. I prefer to enjoy motorcycling.

I talked to Doug. He took one fork apart and when the instructions on the video said to drill out some peened parts 1/8" bit to 1/16" deep but no further else you wil damage the tube, he put everything back together and had Eric, our local RT technician do this for him. He told Eric what he wanted and how he wanted it. Eric said, "Free adjustments as long as you own the forks and I do the service."

Doug is planning on taking Eric up on his offer and adust for a lower compression dampning since he is on the lightest setting and could do with more adjustment.

I'm probably going to do the same but since my bars are right over the adjuster, I am going to make me a thumbwheel device that will fit over the top of the adjuster so I can easily crank on them while out on the trail. Then if I am still not happy, I'll see Eric.

Let me just say, I am happy, estatic even. I was happy with the stock '96 forks with what was probably the origonal oil in them, and I am even happier with the race tech configuration. Any adjustments now are because I can tell that there might be room for improvement. It's kinda like the RB carb. Who knew the A/S could make such differnces? Same with the forks. Great as-is, worlds better than KDX stock forks, but start tweeking and WOW!! Once you have KX forks on the bike and have something that can be tweeked, of course you will. It will be a great treat from the first ride to what ever configuration you end up with dealing with these KX forks.

Someone, I think Jason said it best: Try them out first. Play with them stock and see what they will do. (Even better, see what they will now let you do that you couldn't before.)
Once you have a base understanding of the performance these forks are at, then talk to someone who knows how to interpret what you are talking about and can offer suggestions. In my case, I talk to Eric and pay him to figger out what I am saying so he can tweek the forks for me. It is worth it in my case.

I hope some of this makes sense. :rolleyes:
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Post by m0rie »

Ski i'm curious do you have a revalved shock as well?
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Post by skipro3 »

I just remembered after reviewing my notes and receipts: I asked Eric if I needed new internal seals. Without any hesitation, he told me no. This was during the initial order taking and a chance for him to tack on extra costs. I'm sure he knows about this problem with KX forks and how they should be set to work right. My harshness, if you even want to call it that, is gone with speed. These forks aren't made for trail tours. I told Eric I want to ride enduros and that I am an aggressive (or at least want to be) trail rider who seeks the difficult and shuns fireroads or other easy terrain. They are set for riding agressively and that is where I need to be if I want a comfortable riding bike. I really don't see how you can have a marshmallow ride while ploinking down the trail in 1st / 2nd gear and still be able to leap down a trail from water bar to water bar, airborne most of the distance and enjoying the ride so much you are laughing out loud. If I am going to compomise, it will be for the latter.

Doug told me he KNOWS my forks are working, I crash much less and when I lead, he now has to work (a little, anyway) at keeping up with me.
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Post by skipro3 »

m0rie wrote:Ski i'm curious do you have a revalved shock as well?
Yes. But at this point I'm not sure I can recommend it as I would need to swap back to tell if there is a difference. The stock KDX rear shock is the best shock I've ever ridden, bar none. So if the gold valve rebuild did anything, I would need to compare again.
I must say though, the clickers make a difference, but then they always did. Anyone not adjusting the rear for the conditions is using more energy than necessary and probably crashing more than needed too.
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Post by canyncarvr »

I got a reply from Mark Klein (MXTuner). He's willing to offer his advice. I gave him the specifics..what I got, what I want. I'll let y'all know what he says.

Oh...I said 'KX pistons' to start with. Won't help you GV guys. :(

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Post by skipro3 »

canyncarvr wrote:I got a reply from Mark Klein (MXTuner). He's willing to offer his advice. I gave him the specifics..what I got, what I want. I'll let y'all know what he says.

Oh...I said 'KX pistons' to start with. Won't help you GV guys. :(
I think this is going to be a great route for you to take, CC. I know when I'm in over my head and these forks are way past that. Not that I couldn't learn all about 'em. (Yea, right Jerry. Just keep telling yur self that)
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Post by canyncarvr »

I have looked at the buykawi.com site for the '99 forks. I see nothing like the pic of the bladder from the thread that m0rie posted.

I got my forks yesterday. Gotta take the base valve out to see if the piston looks pro pilot-like. ...not sure what that would look like. Shinier with bigger holes? ;)

There is a pro pilot service sticker on the forks. Don't know they were revalved by them, but serviced there anyway.

Here's something I hadn't considered: There is a limit to how far up in the clamps you can run the USD forks other than hitting the handlebars. After about 1/2" up in the clamps the top clamp would start seating on a tapered part of the fork tube.

I don't wanna be riding uphill all the time. I might have to change my Devol pull rods to level things out. Yeah...and maybe my short 'lil laigs will grow to reach the ground, too!

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Post by KDXGarage »

canyncarvr, on the buykawasaki.com diagram, think OEM KDX right fork leg, the four mounting studs. Think screws in the fuel tank to hold on seat and frame rubber clasp. Think...

ASSEMBLY

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Post by Indawoods »

My forks don't use urine.... they use 5wt oil. Why would yours have a bladder? :neutral:
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Post by Indawoods »

CC... my 03's arent's taperd... so that's an advantage?

You should be able to get your to the right height with a few washers under the top tree.... ya think?
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Post by canyncarvr »

This is getting scattered....

Check the mid-valve thread on this forum where Terry Hay says the '03 KX forks are trouble.

I don't know that the '99s I got have a bladder (full of pee or not) or not. The BuyKawi diagrams don't show it.

Well....I don't see 'em.

If it's an 'assembly'...it's not going to show up? You're right, Jason. They don't show the studs (for example) on the KDX fork. So....there's a bladder IN there, but they don't show it 'cuz they don't sell it as a separate piece?

Sheesh...

There is a point to all of this. There is general complaint about the KX forks being harsh. If they are harsh for the track, it's going to be worse in the woods. Ski says his are harsh. There are more KX frontends going on KDXs on this forum over the past weeks than ever happened anywhere else...we (on this site) should be the ones to actually research the issue and get it resolved.

Just sticking the things on because you can, ending up with not a lot more than the cool factor 'cuz you didn't do the research on the goobers in the forks in the first place seems counterproductive to me.

Is Doug done with his nap, yet? :wink:

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Post by Indawoods »

I WILL get mine resolved. Like I said... nothing is that bad! It's like me saying HP computers are crap! Are they really? NO.... Do I like them, NO! Do you think this is why I say they are crap? YES! :wink:
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Post by skipro3 »

canyncarvr wrote:Here's something I hadn't considered: There is a limit to how far up in the clamps you can run the USD forks other than hitting the handlebars. After about 1/2" up in the clamps the top clamp would start seating on a tapered part of the fork tube.

I don't wanna be riding uphill all the time. I might have to change my Devol pull rods to level things out. Yeah...and maybe my short 'lil laigs will grow to reach the ground, too!
Remember: The KDX stem is longer, thereby making the distance between the lower tree and the upper tree further apart. Remember the spacer I was talking about that goes above the stem nut and before the upper tree? So, when putting the forks into the top tree, it is actually riding further up than the KX, even when flush with the top of the tree. Make sense?

If you had the KX stem you could see the difference.
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Post by skipro3 »

canyncarvr wrote:Is Doug done with his nap, yet? :wink:
You musta skipped that part further up the thread. I'll PM you his work # if you want to give him a ring. He'll just tell you to buy a "real" motorcycle. At least that's what he's always telling me anyway.
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Post by KDXGarage »

Does he have a KX? If so, what size? Thanks.
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Post by canyncarvr »

Yeah. I got the longer part ('cuz of the washer I was able to sherlock that fantabulously logical conclusion!).

Yeah. I got the farther up part too. Doesn't mean I can't give Doug a bad time anyway (not that he's listening. ;) ).

Doug rides a five-hunnert.

A 'real' bike, I'm sure! :grin:

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Post by KDXGarage »

I seem to remember that maybe skipro was saying something about comparing those forks to your '03 KX forks. If they are KX500 forks, then they won't be as advanced as KX125 / KX250 forks. KX500 forks / whole bike has not been updated much in years, much like our beloved KDX's. If that is not the comparison, then nevermind.
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