Mid-valves?

Questions and comments about converting to beefier forks..
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canyncarvr
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Post by canyncarvr »

Ski: Please take a look at the (yet another) KX fork thread I started having to do with bladder removal/modification.

How does that fit with your and Doug's stuff?

I KNEW this was going to get much more complicated that bolting up some hardware!

So...you got gold valves from RT? And you know what the low/hi compression stacks are? Midvalve defeated? Bladder in/out?

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Post by skipro3 »

Doug's in a meeting now. Jeeze, he's wasting valuable time with this work crap!! Anyway, I do know his bike is a 2003 and so are Inda's forks.

Stand-by, he should be over here soon.
Jerry

I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
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Post by Indawoods »

Man... that's a long meeting Ski!!!!
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Post by Indawoods »

KAY DEE EXER wrote:Watch here and tell me if I missed something.
http://www.dirtbikeworld.net/dirtbike/s ... post127755
Site down??? Damn!
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Post by canyncarvr »

Ha! Works for me!!

Sounds like those '03 KX forks are a completely worthless pile of doo!!

Sure glad I don't have a set'a those!!! :grin:

From the above link:
Terry Hay wrote:Sounds to me like you just bought yourself a fistfull of armpump sonny! Even Marzocchi couldn't have screwed up a set of forks worse than the 03 KXs. There is help available. You just need lots of it.
The bladder and restrictive block gott'a come out!! 120ml on the oil. Maybe even more (lower level of oil) for the woods.

Someone help me with this...I'm looking at a parts diagram for an '03 KX250 fork setup. I don't see no bladder and/or the associated washers. Where are they?

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Indawoods
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Post by Indawoods »

Looks like Gold Valves and check valve to me. :neutral:

I'm running at 135mm (low) oil cause I figured it would take less... I still am going to try em out first though. They can't be as bad as he makes em out to be... comeon now...

I couldn't help but notice that THIS is really no help at all...
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Post by Indawoods »

Seems this Terry gives the correct info on one site and zips his lip on the site he has his own soapbox. What's wrong with this picture?

Don't know but what I have deducted here is.... Midvalves=Bladders

Fix=Remove plastic sealing ring and associated washers and put conventional spring washer in. Thie eliminates the bladder and KX forks are plush again.

Ain't so hard to figure out Mr. Terry Hays! :lol:
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Post by KDXGarage »

If he is on an AUS site, he may want some customers instead of just handing out the information for free. I assume people in AUS eat, too. If he is talking to someone in USA, I think he understands that they probably aren't going to send their forks from USA to AUS so he can service them.

I am peretty sure that a midvalve is not the same thing as a bladder. Good luck to you all and your fancy silverware, I mean forks.
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Post by Indawoods »

Uh Jason...Really... if you have been following what was going on you wouldn't have posted... but since you did:

KDXR (Australian) asked the question. He basically said your screwed. He has a forum in which he supposedly answers suspension questions.
What do you get out of that? :?

Not that it means alot to me other than knowing the type of person he is... but if others... in his neck of the woods... you know...the people who put bread on his table knew of this type of behavior.... well.... I guess it's up to them. Just not my kinda guy I guess.


Sorry... must be time for my pain pill. :wink:
Last edited by Indawoods on 10:35 pm Feb 24 2005, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Indawoods »

Bladder comes into play when the midvalve is in play. Eliminate the midvalve...bladder does nothing. Sure... you can take the bladder out... but I really see no reason too.... other than spending more money on oil. :wink:
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Post by KDXGarage »

Why would I not post?

I have read many posts in various suspension forums, and he is one of the nicer tuners to post. Tuners are quite a fickle bunch. I am not looking at him from very few posts, so my opinion may be skewed.

As far as what do I get out of it, it doesn't matter to much to me.

If you are wanting to find people who are "not your kind of guy", you need to breeze through DRN's suspension forum. You will find many there who fit the description.

Keep readin' while you're healin'. If you want me to search through my saved info on forks and find some midvalve info for you, I can do it. I have read and read and read just to get a small grasp on what is going on.

With the advanced tunabiltiy of the newer KX forks comes the increased complaexity and more time and effort to get them just right. I doubt there is a whole lot to adjust on stock KDX forks, so it doesn't take a long time to say, "That's as good as they are going to get." With you guys' KX forks, you will have a much greater time frame. :wink:
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Post by Indawoods »

I guess I was stating that in reference to your reference to my reference from a business point of view.

If he explained on a site he has no interest in... well other than making his name known (assuming) Why would he just blow of KDXR on his own forum?

There's a lot of cliche's for what I'm trying to say.... but the darn pain pill has me loopy! :lol:
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Post by KDXGarage »

I think I get what you are saying. I doubt the guy would talk like that at his shop or on the phone. I HOPE NOT, anyway. :lol:

If you ever want that fork info I have saved, just PM me.
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Post by KDXer »

Inda, He really is a very nice guy. Without going into it too much, alot of Aussies you really have to get to know them well so you know how to take them. I mean alot of people think they are being arrogant or pig headed (or even smarta$$e$) but I think it's more an Aussie thing. Some might call it an attitude problem. Not me... :butthead: Terry really is a top bloke !!! :supz:
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Post by Indawoods »

OK... the bladder deal..

I don't see this so called bladder on the 97, 99 or the 03 'sploded view on Kaws site. Does it even exist? If it's a bladder...wouldn't it be a servicable part (ie replacement)

It seems the key to knowing if your forks have a bladder is the oil height the factory recommends. Mine is 120mm I think. Bladder forks are 90mm.

Now I am going to have to pull my forks apart and look for this little urine bag myself and then decide what to do with it once I find it. Will proly pull 'em out and fix em up caveman style cause I don't need all that midvalving and bladder stuff in my woods setup. I'm afraid it's just not needed in the woods. I mainly bought the 03's cause I wanted something that wasn't worn out. I'm sure I can get em plush and add some bottom resistence without having to through a ton of money at em or have to send em somewhere to get reworked.
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Post by Indawoods »

Evidently no need to tear apart my forks to look for the bladder ... it's not there!
To accommodate the balance of the new frame, the 48mm Kayaba fork has been completely revamped, eliminating the bladder system to provide more responsive fork action.
Taken from this review of the '03 KX 250
http://www.ccpowersports.com/dirtbikes/ ... kx250.html

So... back to my original plan.... "run what you brung!" :lol:
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Post by Indawoods »

KAY DEE EXER wrote:Inda, He really is a very nice guy. Without going into it too much, alot of Aussies you really have to get to know them well so you know how to take them. I mean alot of people think they are being arrogant or pig headed (or even smarta$$e$) but I think it's more an Aussie thing. Some might call it an attitude problem. Not me... :butthead: Terry really is a top bloke !!! :supz:
KD... EVERYONE is a smart@ss... just depends on when and how they show it! Sounds like you just described the worlds opinion of Americans :lol:
Maybe that's why Americans like Aussies so well... After all... we both had it in for England.... right? :wink:
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"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "
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Post by KDXer »

It's not all that expensive. I would suggest a revalve, springs and a cylinder valve replacement kit. All up around $460 less your discount.
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HMMMM. A cylinder valve replacement sounds interesting. These forks I've bought (03's) I'm told are "Fully reworked" which doesn't mean alot to me as they haven't got back to me with specifics. valveing / springs / etc... I guess I will put it in for the works anyway so I can find out whats been done to them in the first place.

Inda..... RIGHT !! :lol:
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Post by KDXer »

Some more info that just verifies what we already know really...

FRONT FORKS

Kawasaki seems to have set the same objective for fork performance for both years because both the 03 and 04 forks are too soft on the low speeds and too harsh on the high speeds; but for different reasons. The 03 uses a cartridge pop off valve like the YZ forks but they did not use enough valves and let them open too far which prevents enough low speed damping from occurring. The pressure can not rise in the lower cartridge until a relatively high shaft speed at which point they put in too much compression at the foot valve to compensate for the lack of low speed damping. So they go from too little to too much damping as the shaft speed changes. They must have realized their mistake for 04 because they deleted the cartridge valves but this time they removed too much low speed damping by making a 2 stage foot valve stack at the compression adjuster. Again to compensate for too little low speed damping they over shot the high speed by using an old (and already failed) bladder design. Most informed shops were removing bladders in the past and will surely do it again for 04.

The end result is the same; the front end bottoms off of drop offs, rides low and promotes head shake, yet it still deflects off of sharp edge high speed edges on the track or trail.

FORK FIX

No big deal and the results are amazingly good. KX and many RM's have used this style of fork & cartridge size since 1999. We have lots of experience with this design and dial in the bottoming resistance and eliminate the harshness by carefully tuning the cartridge valves, mid speed, and foot vavles. There is nothing wrong with the basic design of these components.
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Post by KDXer »

My beast is booked in for a full front end rebuild on the 18th (springs, seals, base revalve, mid revalve etc. I will be trying to find out as much as I can about the midvalve work that is performed. I will also get all the valving details if possible so I can pass it on to you guys.
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