CC's ride report!
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canyncarvr and skipro3, if you two hemopheliacs (free bleeders) are on full out on the compression, I sentence you both to the dirty dungeon of a revalve and/or softer fork springs.
What are you two guys weighing fully suited up?
What are you two guys weighing fully suited up?
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- canyncarvr
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I'm close to 185#
That's with 50oz water..and Tech8s aren't light!
..you were talking about weighing...separately..right?
That's with 50oz water..and Tech8s aren't light!
..you were talking about weighing...separately..right?
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Unless y'all are riding two-up.
Yes, I was asking how much you each weigh individually. Thanks.
Are you running the RT's from eBay? Were they .38's??
Yes, I was asking how much you each weigh individually. Thanks.
Are you running the RT's from eBay? Were they .38's??
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- canyncarvr
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Yes I am. Yes they were. Yes they still are (.38s). Sez so right on the box!
Compliments of yourself, even. Well...if you hadn't told me about them, I certainly wouldn't have gotten'em.
Compliments of yourself, even. Well...if you hadn't told me about them, I certainly wouldn't have gotten'em.
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Thanks for the info.
You gots to get around to doing another shim shuffle on that base valve.
I guess you didn't get my bleed valve - free bleeder reference.
If you guys are running it at full out, that just makes me wonder about the valving or springs, as it would seem that some level of adjustability would be available. That is just me thinking out lod, though.
You gots to get around to doing another shim shuffle on that base valve.
I guess you didn't get my bleed valve - free bleeder reference.
If you guys are running it at full out, that just makes me wonder about the valving or springs, as it would seem that some level of adjustability would be available. That is just me thinking out lod, though.
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- skipro3
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I'm 185 butt neckid
I wear full gear, 50oz of water and a fully loaded fanny pack as well.
Here's the thing though; the forks are using all their travel while on a typical ride. I can tell by the mud wipe marks from the seals on the lower fork tubes. (dust marks this time of year) I don't ride fast, I mean, it's mostly single track at about 20 mph average. It's just the tiny bumps like a rocky road that any 2 wd car could handle that telegraphs the most feed back to the bars. Sure feels like fork stiction that is keeping the forks from moving. Hit something a little larger, and those forks will move quite well.
I wear full gear, 50oz of water and a fully loaded fanny pack as well.
Here's the thing though; the forks are using all their travel while on a typical ride. I can tell by the mud wipe marks from the seals on the lower fork tubes. (dust marks this time of year) I don't ride fast, I mean, it's mostly single track at about 20 mph average. It's just the tiny bumps like a rocky road that any 2 wd car could handle that telegraphs the most feed back to the bars. Sure feels like fork stiction that is keeping the forks from moving. Hit something a little larger, and those forks will move quite well.
Jerry
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Thanks for the info. Would you say 200 or maybe even 205 pounds in full gear?
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- canyncarvr
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I got the bleeder part just fine...hemophiliac and all...
I get the oddity of it all..if the full travel is used (ski's is, mine doesn't seem to be, but like I said, I need to check that better. With sealsavers on, it's not as easy to tell) and at that travel the suspension is doing fine, then springs are good. It's little stuff that's rough.
What mods can you make to the clicker to make it flow a bit more oil. Maybe drill something, 'eh?
From another thread, though ('preload' in this forum) I get the idea that I went about my spring choice wrong.
Jerry...what is the preload of your springs, or....if from RaceTech (sorry..I think they are, but didn't go looking to find out), what series of spring?
I have 4147s..at 470+mm in length. A set of 4146s..at 460+mm in length would work better. I want preload down below 5mm. Can't get that with the KX fork and a 4147 series spring. I've got around 8mm preload now, so the 4146s and a couple of spacers would be much closer to what I'm after.
Gee...more $$ for springs...
I'll see what MX-Tech sells a 4146 type for....
**edit**
RonAyers has '02 YZ-250 (4146s) for $36+ea. That's a bit less than MX-Tech ($81). Commonly (used to be) aftermarket springs were coldwound (Mx-Tech's are) and oem were hotwound. Don't know about oem Yamaha springs.
I get the oddity of it all..if the full travel is used (ski's is, mine doesn't seem to be, but like I said, I need to check that better. With sealsavers on, it's not as easy to tell) and at that travel the suspension is doing fine, then springs are good. It's little stuff that's rough.
What mods can you make to the clicker to make it flow a bit more oil. Maybe drill something, 'eh?
From another thread, though ('preload' in this forum) I get the idea that I went about my spring choice wrong.
Jerry...what is the preload of your springs, or....if from RaceTech (sorry..I think they are, but didn't go looking to find out), what series of spring?
I have 4147s..at 470+mm in length. A set of 4146s..at 460+mm in length would work better. I want preload down below 5mm. Can't get that with the KX fork and a 4147 series spring. I've got around 8mm preload now, so the 4146s and a couple of spacers would be much closer to what I'm after.
Gee...more $$ for springs...
I'll see what MX-Tech sells a 4146 type for....
**edit**
RonAyers has '02 YZ-250 (4146s) for $36+ea. That's a bit less than MX-Tech ($81). Commonly (used to be) aftermarket springs were coldwound (Mx-Tech's are) and oem were hotwound. Don't know about oem Yamaha springs.
Last edited by canyncarvr on 06:10 pm Aug 01 2005, edited 2 times in total.
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Is that with the thong and high heels?
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O.K. I checked:
414742
The 4147 spring in .42kg
I'll go check the preload. (I think you meant sag??) You do mean the bike with no rider right?
Also the sag is different if pushing down on the forks and slowly releasing compared to pulling up on the forks and slowly releasing. The difference is the stiction. In a perfect world, the ride height would be the same for both methods.
If I mis-understood preload, then tell me how to measure what ever the heck it is you want me to measure. :eek: (That's a slack jawed face!)
414742
The 4147 spring in .42kg
I'll go check the preload. (I think you meant sag??) You do mean the bike with no rider right?
Also the sag is different if pushing down on the forks and slowly releasing compared to pulling up on the forks and slowly releasing. The difference is the stiction. In a perfect world, the ride height would be the same for both methods.
If I mis-understood preload, then tell me how to measure what ever the heck it is you want me to measure. :eek: (That's a slack jawed face!)
Jerry
I'd rather be a smartass like carvr, than a dumbass like.... well, you fill in the blank!
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- canyncarvr
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No, not sag. You can tell I didn't mean 'sag' 'cuz I said 'preload'.
Preload being the distance the spring is compressed when it's installed on/in the fork cartridge.
You didn't setup your forks, right?...so you probably didn't mess with it.
If you have 4147, you have the same length spring I have. So...with NO spacers, you're around 8mm preload, too.
Gee...now we know that Inda rides in a thong and high heels.
How's that thong work on monkey-butt, anyway? I'm lookin' for a cure!
BTW...if you're looking for shims...MX-Tech has 'em for less than $1 a piece. That beats RaceTech..and who needs a whole package of them anyway!
I asked MX-Tech if they sell some kind'a hotrod superslick fork fluid....
Preload being the distance the spring is compressed when it's installed on/in the fork cartridge.
You didn't setup your forks, right?...so you probably didn't mess with it.
If you have 4147, you have the same length spring I have. So...with NO spacers, you're around 8mm preload, too.
Gee...now we know that Inda rides in a thong and high heels.
How's that thong work on monkey-butt, anyway? I'm lookin' for a cure!
BTW...if you're looking for shims...MX-Tech has 'em for less than $1 a piece. That beats RaceTech..and who needs a whole package of them anyway!
I asked MX-Tech if they sell some kind'a hotrod superslick fork fluid....
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High heels will break your foot! The thong doesn't help but makes you feel sexy and could lead too surgery on your @ss eventually...
CC... so you feel that the 8mm is too much because of sensitivity of the little stuff? I can see how less preload could break the stiction problem... and that was pretty much what I was getting at with my preload question.
CC... so you feel that the 8mm is too much because of sensitivity of the little stuff? I can see how less preload could break the stiction problem... and that was pretty much what I was getting at with my preload question.
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O.K.
I under stand now. That's why the forks take a certain amount of force to get sliding right off. Once they are moving, they move. But initial movement feels "sticky".
The thought then is that the preloaded spring has a certain amount of stored energy resisting any movement; more so than a spring at rest. A shorter spring isn't NEEDING to be squished or preloaded in order to fit. But I thought it was the preload that held the bike up to its proper sag height. Wouldn't a shorter spring just sag a little more to make up for the lost energy a longer spring under preload provided? Maybe I don't understand.
I under stand now. That's why the forks take a certain amount of force to get sliding right off. Once they are moving, they move. But initial movement feels "sticky".
The thought then is that the preloaded spring has a certain amount of stored energy resisting any movement; more so than a spring at rest. A shorter spring isn't NEEDING to be squished or preloaded in order to fit. But I thought it was the preload that held the bike up to its proper sag height. Wouldn't a shorter spring just sag a little more to make up for the lost energy a longer spring under preload provided? Maybe I don't understand.
Jerry
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A drill would work great, but I don't think that the base valve, or spring for that matter, is your problem.canyncarvr wrote:What mods can you make to the clicker to make it flow a bit more oil. Maybe drill something, 'eh?
skipro3, you would have to partially take the forks apart to check the preload. You are correct in stating that the preload is used to set the sag. For any given spring, it will take X amount of force to start to compress it. If you change the amount of preload, it changes that set point. I wouldn't worry about it, though. If it is too rough on the high speed hits, then make changes that affect (effect, whichever) the high speed.
canyncarvr, which set of Kouba links do you have, KDX1, KDX2 or KDX3?
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- Indawoods
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Think of this though...
The forks are too long to begin with right? With less preload then the stiction would be broke and the forks could be lowered in the trees giving more adjustment....right? I don't see any negative side effects.
The forks are too long to begin with right? With less preload then the stiction would be broke and the forks could be lowered in the trees giving more adjustment....right? I don't see any negative side effects.
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Think of stiction as STIcky friCTION. Getting the springs to start compressing does not fall under this category. Forks and/or a shock could have stiction with no spring installed.
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- Indawoods
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They may Jason but, where the forks are not used much will have more stiction than areas that are used frequently... of course, Barring any buildup or being bent.
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That's right Jason. It's not from a topped out fork that the stiction is an issue, it's at that point of travel where the fork tubes are stopped, then need to start sliding again that the stiction is evident. For example: I sit on my bike and load the suspension. Just a light bounce with the front wheel brake locked and it won't move. More weight or aggressive bounce, not much, just a little more, and the fork travels quite a ways before stopping again; maybe an inch or so. When easing the weight off the forks, gently, at some point; bang!!! The forks start to rise as if someone let the foot off the brakes inside there. Hope that makes sense.
So there is some unidentified amount of force required to be over come before the forks will move in either direction. In a perfect fork, even a minimal amount of force should cause the fork to move some, even if just a very slight amount. I'll see if I can rig a scale to the bike's forks and measure the extra weight applied at the bars to get the forks to start traveling.
So there is some unidentified amount of force required to be over come before the forks will move in either direction. In a perfect fork, even a minimal amount of force should cause the fork to move some, even if just a very slight amount. I'll see if I can rig a scale to the bike's forks and measure the extra weight applied at the bars to get the forks to start traveling.
Jerry
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I understand what you mean on the first paragraph. You are experiencing it at the start of travel. It could also happen at other points in the fork travel. You won't notice it properly with the springs in. How could you tell if it was a little stiction or the spring rebounding with 200 pounds of force if you moved it far down in the travel??
No need to rig a scale, as you already answered your question. You mentioned "in a perfect fork". Well, your tubes are 10 years old, and even when brand new, the tolerances were not "perfect". If it ever bothers you enough, you can always get the "Works Suspension" fork kits from Pro Circuit and others that run around $3,000. They may have less stiction, as they claim to build them to tighter tolerances.
But in all seriousness, I think we are discussing a characteristic of forks that does not lend itself to be fixed cheaply, and probably can be lived with.
No need to rig a scale, as you already answered your question. You mentioned "in a perfect fork". Well, your tubes are 10 years old, and even when brand new, the tolerances were not "perfect". If it ever bothers you enough, you can always get the "Works Suspension" fork kits from Pro Circuit and others that run around $3,000. They may have less stiction, as they claim to build them to tighter tolerances.
But in all seriousness, I think we are discussing a characteristic of forks that does not lend itself to be fixed cheaply, and probably can be lived with.
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